I am apparently a hollow shell, devoid of any substance.

When I date, the women usually say that I'm too quiet. But lately the more sophisticated shadchanim have said that it's not that I'm too quiet, but that I'm not opening up enough or sharing my feelings with a girl.

I think that I'm flexible and easygoing (within a halachic framework) and that would help me get along with a broad range of people, but apparently girls want a guy to have strong opinions (as long as they happen to match perfectly with their opinions). Recently, a date asked if I had goals. I said that other than getting married I didn't have any particular goals. It's like being on a bad job interview where they ask me where I see myself in five years. [Note, it's apparently not a good answer to say, "In a year I will have learned my job, and your job, and your supervisor's job, and then I'll take over your position."] It should be obvious that I've set goals in the past, as I recently completed law school, found a job, and became a lawyer, but apparently if I don't have a constant set of new goals, then I'm not sharing and I'm not going to be able to find a wife. [Of course, when I turned the question around, the girl also didn't have any goals, but that's all right, because there's a double standard that the man is supposed to reveal his inner self (or fool the girl into believing that he's done so), while the girl doesn't have to do the same.]

I'll probably just give up on dating and trying to find a wife, because if being somewhat flexible and easygoing isn't good enough, and I know from years ago that having opinions would just get me in trouble when they didn't match the girls' opinions, then there's nothing else I can do.

It sounds like you're very frustrated.
Believe me, dating can be frustrating.
It also sounds like the women would like to learn something about you beyond your just wanting to get married.
What other goals in life do you have?
You are not married now -what do you spend your time doing?
Is it a goal for you to make partner at a law firm? (as an example)
Is it a goal for you to work out more?
Is it a goal to be a better son to your parents?
I think they are trying to get to know you better when they ask that question, get a better sense of you, and they aren't getting any new information when they hear "I want to get married."
Just my two cents.

My only other goal is to learn more Torah, and I'm especially interested in improving my Hebrew vocabulary. It would be nice if I could get to where I could read sefarim in Hebrew.

Play on the computer; post on H.com; learn a little.

No. Most of the time, "partner" is just an honorific, rather than someone actually having equity in the firm. I have no interest in being a workaholic; I'd rather have the leisure time outside out of work.

I would like to, but I haven't set it as a goal, because it's not a priority now, and I don't want to set goals and then fail at them and be disappointed in myself.

What, have you heard complaints from them?

When I want to get a measure of someone, and his potential, I look to his past accomplishments. I think if I were to meet someone and learn that he's had not one but two careers, that he was a shul president, that at one point he trained in TaeKwonDo and had a black belt, I would realize that I'm talking to someone who is able to set goals and achieve great things. But, I'm a guy, not a girl.

Honestly from what I can tell you seem like a great catch. If I knew of an eligible female I would not hesitate to suggest you.

I don't think the problem is YOU, but that chicks in your age range are usually not marriageable...
I have a hard enough time at MY age, and I'm not even 30...

It sounds to me like you have no idea what sort of person is right for you. You're trying to please everyone all the time and that -- as we all know -- is impossible. Don't try to be all things to all people. Be the right guy for the right girl, not the right guy for any girl.

did you say it, together with "getting married" part?

you are right - these are all major accomplishments and say a great deal about a person. but what's now? i have no idea how you worded your answer to the date, but here is my 2 cents (everyone, feel free to disagree). i don't mean to sound mean, but if a man told me his goal is to get married, i would be afraid of him being too desperate. now, if he said "my goal is to build a family, learning more torah, improve my hebrew knowledge so that i can read sefarim in hebrew, to contnue working in my field as i enjoy it, but i don't want it to become 24/7 job-hobby-living quarters all in one", then it would sound totally fine and give me a glimpse into that person's inspirations and ideas about the future.


(that said, if people asked me this question before i had my daughter, i would also fail )

it's all in the wording.

you say: no goals
she hears: boring, unambitious

your lifestyle shows that not only you have goals, but you reach them as well!

it's not that you don't have the good qualities or the goals, i think it's just that it takes time before you warm up and open up to a stranger. it's perfectly natural, in my opinion, not to feel comfortable enough to spill your guts when you first meet someone.

i think that if you mention things you want to do (like travel or buy a house or whatever you actually want to do) then those can be your ambitions. further, if you say you want someone with which you can share these ambitions, it will tell her that you want to get married without actually saying those words and sounding needy or pushy.

I agree with Spot. You obviously are good at attaining goals, you are driven and all that. You are funny (at least funnier than most people on this site).
You just don't present yourself well at all.
When you first joined this site, you came off as a whiney old guy who just felt bad for himself all the time. Maybe you're giving off that (false) impression on dates too.

I'm going to agree with what everyone else said - you're not boring and unambitious, but maybe you aren't sharing enough of your thought process or elaborating enough. Simply saying "my only goal in life to get married" does not make one an attractive catch - a woman wants to know that you do have your own interests and that you have some kind of plan in mind for what happens after the wedding. They want to feel that you're well-rounded and without expressing any kind of desire for anything, it's hard to determine that. You should really explain WHY you don't want to be partner, or why you don't set "goals" for yourself - and then tell her that while you may not have concrete goals at this point, you would like to do x, y, and z in the future. Tell her what's important to you (family, learning, making sure that your job doesn't overtake your life) and that will give her a clearer picture and present you in a better light without having to resort to answering "where do you see yourself in five years?".

First of all, Betzalel, the fact that everyone here is giving different and often contradictory advice should remind you that most people, male or female, happily married, involuntary singles and everything inbetween is really clueless about human relationships. Most people who are in a real, successful relationships are just lucky to have found the right person at the right time, as opposed to being good catches or super-smooth or anything.

Evidently the women you've been dating are mostly jerks. The question is why that has been happening. And, in reality, one could come up with many theories, some encouraging you others discouraging you, and they would all be BS. There is no "recipe" or "formula" for getting married.

Is there something you should change about yourself? Well, I would suggest that changing in order to please people who reject you is one of the most humiliating things you could do to yourself. 
You would just be giving them power over your life.

The bottom line is that if there can't be a double standard to reality. If you are "single for a 'reason'" then it would follow that these people you're dating are also single for a reason. (I don't believe that's the case, like I said before).

This is a possibility.


Yes, this has been a problem in the past. I feel that there are things that I can say on h.com that I can't ever say in real life, such as the fact that I have an intellectual problem with shaitels. I was going with a sefardi girl who would only eat meat that was chalak beit yosef or halal or whatever it is that those sefardim eat, but she also talked about how much she liked sheitels. She wasn't amused when I told her that I didn't like them intellectually, and she wasn't satisfied when I said that I could marry a girl who wanted one -- she wanted me to recant my opinion on them. So we parted ways, and I learned to keep my mouth shut. I later went out with a chick who was wearing a sheitel, and it didn't bother me that much, and I never volunteered to her that I didn't understand how a proper solution to covering erva and being modest was to wear something that was very beautiful (and expensive) that was so realistic that many people wouldn't know it wasn't her actual erva. And since my feeling is, "intellectually it bothers me, but it's widely accepted in Ashkenazi frum culture, so I'm quite willing to marry a girl who wears one," I still think it's best for me to keep my thoughts to myself. Because if I tell a girl that, I'll either have to find one who follows Rav Ovadiah and doesn't wear a sheitel but who uses a scarf, snood, etc., or find one who agrees with me intellectually but still wears one because the rabbis' wives do so, or find one who disagrees with me but who is woman enough to marry a man who actually disagrees with her on something.


Why do I have to have constant goals, especially when girls don't? What new goal should I set for myself? When I was still in law school I had a goal (to finish it, pass the bar, find a job), but that didn't impress the girls back then. They always find something to complain about to the shadchanim.


Is going for semicha a good goal? I really don't feel worthy enough to be a rabbi, and wouldn't ever use the term, but I guess I could set getting that slip of paper as a goal.


Yes, but looks aren't everything.


Indeed, and I'm not sure how to fix that.


I thought that having discussed my recent change in career and some other things would show that I'm well-rounded (in a slender sort of way) and that I do have many interests and am open to developing new interests.




I can try that.

your intellect will love this one: i recently heard that R'Blumenkrantz paskened (no prove and/or sources, everyone, do your own homework ) that a woman can make a sheitel out of her OWN hair. the reason being that only hair attached to scalp is ervah. how bizzare-sounding is this?

you missed the point. you don't need to have constant tangible goals - that's the point, but i think you'd do better if you present your everyday ideas/"thrivings" as your goals, if that's what your date is asking. re-read Spot's last paragraph and Shuli's post - they said it very well. now, there will always be girls who want some major aspirations from their dates - obviously, they are not for you, but i really doubt they are in majority. most women just want to hear what is driving you in this life, what you want to do with your life, etc.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

You don't like sheitels though you're okay with your wife wearing one, but girls don't want to hear this, they want you to say that you don't want your wife to wear a sheitel?

maybe that girls (based on that sefardi girl's answer) like men to stick to their beliefs - if he doesn't intelectually agree with wearing a sheitel, then he should want a wife who doesn't cover with a sheitel?

I know I want a husband who sticks to his beliefs, but when it comes to hair covering, I don't care one bit what the guy thinks because It's Not Up To Him. If a guy would insist that I cover my hair in a particular way then I know that this guy is not for me.

No! The girls I meet (probably all of whom plan on wearing a sheitel) would be upset to hear that I have an intellectual problem with them. Even if I say that I have an intellectual problem with them but wouldn't be offended if my wife chooses to wear one, they would be upset. They want to hear that I'm in 100% agreement with the rabbis who think sheitels are an appropriate hair covering for women.

Maybe the girls are in agreement with the rabbinical party line, or maybe because they perceive sheitels as beautiful and plan to wear one, they don't want to hear any criticism of them.

As a wise man once said,

right, but, i guess, some women don't differentiate between "sticking to his beliefs" in regards to a woman's mitzva or no-difference-in-gender mitzvos; to them it's just "sticking to one's beliefs".

perhaps your cynicism is getting in the way. you can't expect your date to get what you are about without being talkative. if you're quiet then they assume that you have nothing to say. no one wants to spend a lifetime with someone who has nothing to say. if you don't like their questions, ask your own questions, or give them the same explanation that you have given us on why you don't like questions about goals.

zabiha halal?

You can consider yourself lucky that you broke up with that character.

All I know is that the ordinary Ashkenazi glatt kosher places weren't good enough for her, so we would go to dairy places. I would order pizza and she would ask the waitress if they checked their salads for insects. Upon being reassured, she would order a salad, then squint at it and point to a tiny spot on the lettuce and tell me that it was a scale insect, etc.

When I told her my philosophy about sheitels, she had her rabbi call my rabbi, and they discussed whether I was a Karaite or some other sinner, etc.

according to h.com, you should have dumbed her just because she ordered a salad on a date

That's really nutty. I'd be totally turned off if I'd gone through a similar experience.

Oh, and these girls who can't handle you thinking for yourself don't sound like they would be much of a catch. Do you really want a wife you have to censor yourself with, because she can't handle a difference of opinion? I happen to agree with you on the shaitel issue, and readily admit that I wear one exclusively because I look very unflattering in other coverings and it's a widely accepted psak that shaitelach are an appropriate covering. Those who can't accept intellectual honesty scream of insecurity and a desire to conform (IMHO not a very attractive trait in a life partner).

I would have loved to go on a date like that, just for the comedic value.
You should have asked your rabbi to ask her rabbi if she was an escaped mental patient.

In which case, you might want to have a word with the person/people setting you up. Tell them you don't want a girl who's Little Miss Party Line.

What's wrong with thinking that a different type of haircovering is better but not think that it's worth breaking up over? (I mean, come on- R' O. Yosef says that if that's the situation, just let her do what she wants.)

You'd have to ask the girls; they are the ones who can't handle a guy having a difference of opinion.


Does he? I hadn't heard that question and answer. So even though he says that the wig and the women will both burn in hell, it's okay for a man to acquire her/stay with her? Interesting. But we're getting way off-topic.

I shall try to incorporate some of the suggestions I've received, and will report back on any change in my perceived hollow status.

if you're looking to change specifics about your hollowness, i hear cheese curls and ice cream go straight to the buttock/thigh area.

Interesting.

Yes. I will try to find where he writes that later, but R' OY says that if there's a shidduch and everything is good except that she wants to wear a sheitel, marry her and let her.

I have yet to hear complaints about my buttocks or thighs from any shadchanim. Is that a complaint that a girl would ordinarily mention to a rabbi or shadchan?

I have noticed that several posters on H.com have referenced wanting a well-rounded guy, so that could also be a problem.

probably, but it would usually be worded something like, "our hashkafos are too different" or something equally vague.

(it was a joke, as is the above. although on second thought, you have mentioned the beanpole issue so a few splurges can't hurt, right?)

Right. Or like "her middos are lacking".

.

Your sister?

You've received a lot of good advice here already with respect to how you can be more open with a woman regarding your goals, but going back to your OP, I realize that that was only one example. Although opening up about life goals is very important, I think that when a woman says to a guy that he is not opening up enough or sharing his feelings enough, that it relates to much more than life goals. I think it also means that she wants to be with a guy who will share his feelings with her with respect to whatever happens to be going on in his life at that time (e.g. problems at work, concerns about a sick friend). When someone confides in you and shares their feelings it helps establish a closer connection with that person, so that might also be what she was getting at, and her question regarding goals might really have been her way of trying to prod you to open up to her more in general.

True. But what happens if a man is a "gam zu l'tov" type of fellow? Not saying that I'm on that madreiga, but some women might think that such a guy must actually hate his boss or coworker but just be keeping it a secret from her, and thus she labels him as not opening up to her.

Also, a guy does have to worry about coming across as a wimp. I thought that the sensitive man went out with the 80s, and that now women want a guy who is a rock, someone they can always go to crying about their work situation, but someone who won't ever complain himself? [By the time I figure out what women expect, the decade changes, along with what is in vogue.]

My response was based on the feedback that you received from the schadchan. If these women are saying that they would like you to open up more, then what I'm suggesting is that you try and find a way to do that in your regular interactions with them, not just a one-time discussion of life goals. I know this can be difficult, and it's up to you to figure out how to balance sharing a bigger part of who you are without coming across as a wimp. Yes, women like a rock who they can go to with their problems, but based on the feedback it sounds like these women want you to share what's important to you in return [which sounds reasonable to me], and no, sharing does not just mean complaining. Why would these women want to continue confiding personal details to someone who doesn't confide in them in return. Make sense?

Bezalel, how do you do that glossary thing in your post?

In the Quick Access box that is below the emoticons, I use the Insert: Acronym selection.

I remember once someone set me up with a guy, and the thing she kept saying to describe him was "There's nothing wrong with him!"
She said that as if this was something to get really excited about.
She couldn't really describe him much - yeah, he has a job, looks average, etc. - but she kept exclaiming excitedly "There's nothing wrong with him!"

I feel like in order to MARRY someone, it can't be just that there's nothing wrong with them (which is impossible in any case - no one is perfect) - there has to be something RIGHT about that person.

I felt like asking my friend, "What's RIGHT about this guy?"

If someone were to describe me to a potential SDJ I don't think they would say "There's nothing wrong with her!"
I think they would be able to describe me - outgoing, smart, independent, funny, interested in other cultures, etc.
I would like someone who makes enough of an impression that someone could do the same about them.

Maybe this is part of the issue.