I was at a shabbos kallah and one of the relatives shared the following advice:

Always think, yes I CAN

C: Choice. You have a choice how you respond to something. Choose to let things go.

A: Arrival. Rush to greet your husband when he arrives home.

N: Never. Never go to bed angry.



While I hear these a lot, I'm not sure I agree.

As far as choosing to let things go, sometimes you shouldn't. I've heard numerous kallahs be told that they should let their husbands be the final decision and choose not to be confrontational/argumentative/etc. I just don't think a passive, unempowered, scared to speak up wife is really the ideal.

I think the second point is a good one (and often overlooked). As long as it's not presented as an absolute, I think it can enhance a marriage.

As far as never going to bed angry, here's where I have the most difficulty. I think that sometimes it's really best if both parties separate and cool down before resuming the discussion/argument. When people are tired and emotions are running high, there's a great potential for some really hurtful and damaging things to be said. Insisting on never going to bed until it's resolved can be a recipe for disaster.

What do y'all think?

"Never go to bed angry" does not equal "never going to bed until its resolved"

I agree with you on this point. Often one spouse feels that s/he 'let go' when really s/he harbors it inside and keeps bothering him/her, but would be better if it WAS brought up and discussed to make sure it gets resolve without anyone feeling bitter about the situation.

On a similar note, I've heard people say never to leave the house while in a fight just in case something happens you don't want it to have ended on a bad note. While that sounds all lovey dovey and great, if you're really serious about the rule you are giving yourself a 'make up' time frame and forcing it to happen faster than it should is never good (ok, maybe sometimes it is).

Yes and No.
C: Choice, and "choose to let things go" is mixed. Like you said, always being passive isn't good, so taking that to the extreem is the wrong idea. But sometimes "let it go" is good advice because people need to learn to just shut up.

I'm not crazy about the "never go to bed angry" rule either.

I agree about the greeting thing [I'll ignore the sexist assumption that the wife is the one waiting at home for the husband to come back from hunting and gathering, and the sexist assumption that the responsibility for shalom bayit is hers alone].

I think it's nice, although of course it's not going to make or break a relationship - none of these pithy advice tidbits will make up for real issues.

Also, by the way, when the husband leaves for his hunting and gathering in the morning - I think both should keep in mind that if he drops dead from a heart attack or gets hit by a bus, what the last things they said to each other were. For example, if Sender leaves saying, "Good bye, honey, I love you" [chas veshalom if anyone else is within hearing distance since then others may have hirhurim], that's something they could live with if one of them drops dead, but not if the last thing between them was, "And Sender, for once in your life, remember the darn dry cleaning".

While it fits into the nice little "CAN" motto, I'm not sure how important "arrival" could possibly be. Should a husband also rush to greet the wife? This sounds a little too 1952 to me.

The divorce rate was MUCH lower in 1952....

For a variety of reasons such as women being trapped financially without the economic ability to free herself from her abusive marriage.

Yeah, I guess the way it was said just rubbed the wrong way. The examples given (e.g., if he forgets to do something he said he would do, you can choose to say something or to not) didn't help. Sometimes something needs to be said.



Very true about the last things people say.

As far as the sexism, remember, this was at a shabbos kallah. It was a bunch of women (and 3 boys under the age of 3) giving advice, chizuk, and simcha to the kallah. I don't know what shalom bayis advice the chosson got but it makes sense that the advice given to a kallah is centered around what the wife can do to improve shalom bayis.

My guess? None.

The problem is that today many women view the very concept of marriage as "abusive"...

Fair enough, but it still wasn't advice such as, "When you come home from a day standing in the operating theater with one D&C after another, make sure you express your appreciation to Brian for doing the homework with the kids and for getting supper ready when he came home from afternoon seder and from chopping firewood for the widows".


ETA: I'm reminded of the article in this past week's Mishapacha Family, where they were talking about how to make things easier post partum for new moms, and one of the tidbits was not to hesitate to ask the kids to help out, and in brackets, as a theoretical afterthought: oh, and ask the husband to help, too IF POSSIBLE.

I know this isn't the same as a marriage, but when my son who died in a car crash left on that final fateful trip from which he would never return, he and I weren't getting along so well. While he was away I was thinking of how I was going to make more effort when he returned.

Ever since then I have made it a policy not to wait to make things up; whether it's between me and DH, or me and anyone else.

How did "never go to bed angry" become such a hit of an aphorism? Was it in a movie or smth?

Trust me, not this crowd. It was a shabbos kallah, for crying out loud. You've never seen a more marriage-happy crew.



Ok, point made.

Another piece of advice was to show constant appreciation for every little thing the husband does around the house to reinforce good behavior and encourage it "much as you would with a toddler."

While this is completely insulting etc, it happens to work.

There is a whole new book based on that principle.... "What Shamu Taught Me About Life, Love and Marriage"

I remember watching them say it on the Cosby show.

I gotta sig this

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...shpacha0001.jpg

Why are you always so angry? Why do you assume that men don't care about treating their wife nicely?



Maybe it's practical. The general consensus is that keeping hurt inside instead of communicating appropriately is potentially negative for the relationship. Perhaps, when people go to sleep with the issue unresolved they wake up less angry, but then they are not in a mood to open up the issue and talk about it. So, the issue is not resolved and can linger until the next time. If you resolve not to go to sleep angry then it's assumed you communicated and resolved the issue.

My guess it that's not her point. I assume her point is about the [certain demographic] rather than men in general.

I am hardpressed to believe that men in any one demographic receive measurably more guidance than men in other demographics. I am not the demographic (I think) you are hinting at and no one pulled me aside to tell me how I should treat my wife.

I thought my comment was more cynical than angry.


I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming that men aren't interested in taking direction from other people on how to treat their wives, sort of like the way men here all resisted the idea of going to pre-marital counseling when we discussed it recently-ish.

Also, I'm assuming that a man's interest in treating his wife nicely is not the lovey-dovey-put-his-wife-first attitude that women have, or at least try to have, based on C.A.N. -- a wife's going to try to greet her husband at the door; what's the husband going to do?

I can see why you'd think that, but in this case that wasn't my train of thought.

Then that demonstrates Goldfish's point, doesn't it?






[Anecdote: I still remember at my wedding, during the meal when the couple are doing their obligatory walkabout to thank people for coming, the mesader kiddushin (for those familiar with Toronto: R. Raphael Marcus) told me to stay by my wife's side and not to go my separate way...that made a real impact on me and I still remember that; I thought that was very sensitive advice].



Funny how our [ie my] prejudices and biases skew and color our [ie my] readings of others' posts.

Indeed.

But like I said, it's very logical. In a society where the wife works and takes care of the children for the sake of the husband learning in kollel, it's easy to believe that they are more husband-centric than a society where the husband and wife both work for their family's sake.

But actually:

"Honey, we're lost, why don't we ask for directions?"
"No, don't worry, I know exactly where we are."

Is a stereotype of men in all societies.

(Of course there's a stereotype of women in this too: That they can't read/follow maps.)

You come off as very angry. Please don't take it personally or as insulting. It's just an observation of mine.

I think men are not likely to diseminate advice or receive it the same way as women. No, they are not likely to sit around in a circle and giggle as they come up with ways to be nice to their wife. However, a private moment or two with a good friend is not out of the question.

As to a man's interest in treating his wife - I don't see why you would think a man would greet his wife any differently than she would greet him.


To a degree. Maybe people who know me didn't see a reason to patronize me with suggestons regarding behaviors I already exhibited.

My husband and all his friends had way more shalom bayis prep than my friends and I. From the shalom bayis vaadim they had in yeshiva, to the multiple classes his chosson teacher(s) gave him on the subject, he knows a lot more about making me happy than I do about him.

That is ridiculous! And in my opinion, it should be the opposite. The husband should HAVE to help (it's his household) and the kinderlach should be asked to and should 'pull their weight' but an 8-year old should not be FORCED to do diaper duty. If s/he likes changing baby's diapers than nothing wrong with asking, but if she doesn't want to or it's too dirty, icky, I can see not requesting her to do it, but the husband should still do it. (not that wife shouldn't but assuming wife is nursing the other baby, while this one has an icky diaper)


Really?!? I don't think mh had any shalmo bayis prep (note to self: ask him).

However, I also think that men are naturally more willing to go against their inclination if they know it is for the happiness of their wife. A woman, I think, has a harder time doing something she doesn't want/feel is right/etc. JUST because her husband wants her to.

I think it's the exact opposite. Women are naturally socially conditioned to be self-sacrificing while men aren't.


Well, it is personal, but I'm not insulted, just surprised.

Same here (BH). Although I think I had more SB talks than him.

I think women just over-analize the whole giving thing, calculating millions of times to make sure the giving score is even while the husbands are just happy to make their wives happy end of story.

I think you pinned the difference. It's self-sacrifice vs giving.

I don't know. I think it's easier for a husband to give to a wife than a wife to give to a husband. Buying flowers or jewelry is simple enough, but what material thing can you get for a guy that will make him as happy as flowwers or jewelry will make his wife? Nothing really so you gotta do immaterial giving which means giving into him.

I'm not sure what you mean. Switch self-sacrifice with giving in what I wrote above and it's still true.

I think women (think they) understand men and try to give to them what they want, while men stand around scratching their heads and wondering to themselves: What do women want? They say they don't want something special for their birthday, but do they really mean it? Boy, I'm in trouble. If I take her at her word and I'm wrong, then she'll be mad. If I assume she's just being coy and I'm wrong, then she'll be mad. Why can't women just say what they mean???

Nah. A good fresh batch of homemade chocolate chip cookies is a lot easier/cheaper than buying flowers/jewlery.

Not to someone who finds that "demeaning" or unpleasant.... You are a "balebusta" so it seems second nature to you, but some chicks couldn't make cookies if their lives depended on it, and many that CAN, don't want to...

It's a lot easier when you can just shell out some money, buy something and not require giving of YOURSELF....

Wait-so you're essentially agreeing with me!?

FTR, baking cookies is so easy these days what with ready made cookie dough and all. Though I still manage to botch that up sometimes!

Usually, when you speak of [certain demographic], you're talking about yeshivish people. IME, yeshivish guys are the most likely to be in an organized frum structure for the majority of their day around the time that they get married.
This means that they will have...

In mh's yeshiva, there is also a "chusson gemach" of different essays, such as by R' Wolbe, on shalom bayis and how to treat your wife. The bochrim also get a "shmooz" from the rabbeim they're close with.
For the most part, what I had was well meaning people I didn't really know shooting off advice that was completely not nogayah.


Y'know what? I disagree. As someone else posted recently, I don't have to understand how every man out there works- I have to understand my husband. By the same token, he doesn't have to understand all the women in the world- he has to understand me. Figuring out one person isn't all that hard. Sure, you'll make mistakes or be surprised from time to time, but if you both know that going in, it's not a big deal.

I know women that don't like to bake. They go out and buy a nice steak (if can't cook it, buy it all ready to go). Personally, I find a husband needs a lot less to be happy (or maybe it's just my husband who is easy to please, in general)


I actually find it easier with homemade ingredients. (it requires measuring out baking soda/flour, as opposed to opening a bag - either way you add in eggs/oil/marg/etc.)

Not the ones I get. They are prerolled chocolate chip cookies that just need to be put on a cookie sheet and in the oven for however long (a half hour maybe?).

It's not the effort involved, it's the thoughts. No matter how easy a woman finds it to bake cookies, if she's considers it demeaning to bake for her husband it's gonna be a huge deal.


You might as well go to the bakery.

You make a good point.

On the other hand, if the husband feels that baking cookies is just part of the wifely baseline duties, she won't get any points for doing it. It's not just that she bakes cookies. It's that he realizes that she is taking the time/effort to bake him cookies because she loves him. (Same with a wife who expects flowers for shabbos and doesn't appreciate the time/effort that goes into getting them.)

I'm confused here. Why would someone find it demeaning to bake for their husband? I can understand if they are forced, but if they are not I would think it equal to a guy buying his wife flowers which is lovely and not humiliating at all.


With these you can at least pretend and they look like they were homemade so you can feel all virtuous. Besides, you get the good smell in your house.

Imagine if someone grew up in a home with a baker. Every day when she came home, the baker(worker) was in charge of serving the cookies/milk to the kids. She would not think of this as a job for her husband, rather for the worker.

Yes, he should. Just because it sounds "old fashioned" doesn't mean it doesn't have merit. Modern does not always equal better.