I just finished reading a few of Meir Kahane's ( HY"D) books ( over the course of the past year) and i decided that his position regarding the Arab problem in Israel is correct and i believe the sooner we implement it the sooner there will be peace in Israel.
What he said:
Give the Arabs an ultimatum either leave voluntarily with a $10,000 cash bonus or stay and pledge allegiance to the state of Israel, and if you do not want to do either then he will be forcibly removed.

Furthermore, I believe that we should make a no mans land on the entire perimeter of Israel by pushing back as much as needed filling up the land with mines but keeping secret tank tracks in case of further need of invasion. The more advanced the terrorists get in terms of rocket range, the further back we push.

So they should lay waste to the entire Mediterranean region, is that your point?

I'm guessing that if you offered the Palestinians full Israel citizenship and full rights on the condition that they pledge allegiance to the state of Israel (whatever a pledge is good for) all but the most insane 5% would go for it.  That would definitely end the present cycle of violence.
The problem with that is you'd be "activating" the long hyped demographic "time bomb" the right like to talk about. Namely, if all the Palestinians could vote, in a few years, together with Israeli Arabs they'd be a majority and vote the Jews out of power.
The present situation proves that those who opposed partition and declaring statehood in 48 were right. A secular bicultural country or even cultural autonomy under British rule would have been much more sustainable options.
I'm not sure that the clock can be turned back to that of a bicultural state in all of EY without a great human cost to the Jews of EY...
Now the idea of giving people $10,000US for their homes, even if adjusted for inflation is basically absurd. Let's say $10,000 Kahane dollars would be $25,000 2008 dollars. That's not enough to buy a home, especially on short notice... Besides that, there isn't the sufficient infrastructure to absorbe that many refugees anywhere in the Arab world so rapidly. So in real life Kahane was suggesting tha
t we gas them. Hitler first said the Jews should go to Palestine. When that didn't work out, he wanted to send them to a reservation aroung Lublin. When that triggered internal politics, he decided on Madagascar. In the end, outmanuvered by the allies he had nowhere to send the Jews so he accepted the idea to have them killed.
I'm not chas veshalom *defending* Hitler yimach shmo. It is a serious violation of international law, not to mention common decency, to expell civilians en-masse from an area to manipulate the demographics. That practice has a name, and it's not "involuntary transfer" (that's just a dumb Kahanism), it's called ETHNIC CLEANSING. That's what Hitler wanted to do in the first place. And basically, what happens with all cases of ethnic cleansing (think Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc.) is that at a certain point there's a bottle-neck in the outflow of unwanted emmigrants, and the only way for them to go is up, as in up a crematorium chimney.
Kahane mentions that the "population transfer" started with Mizrahi and Teimani Jews being kicked out of their home countries in the Arab world. That is not correct. There was some violence, possibly instigated by the Zionists themselves, which together with the enthusiasm of going back to EY on the "wings of eagles" galvanized the communities to emmigrate out of their own volition. While it's true that there were people who were killed (some people hanged in the markets in Aleppo for instance...) it was low level even by second intifada standards, and there never was any actual de jure or de facto expulsion by any government. In fact, most of these countries still have a small fraction of their communities that never left, and they've never been forced to leave.
At the end of the day, the Palestinians are still people. If you have a heart you should realize that they deserve a lot better than how they're being treated (even if it were unavoidable for security issues, which I personally doubt...) and certainly deserve a lot better than Kahane's ideas. I'm not saying you should turn the other cheek. I'm saying that by going to extreme measures to "defend yourself" against what you perceive as threats you can become an evil monster... is that what you are advocating?

again I'm expecting an אין הכי נמי from certain people, but they enjoy hyperbole

Could you be any more leftist and wrong? I mean, seriously, you aren't American, you aren't Israeli, and you aren't observant. And to top it off you evidently have nothing more to do than come here posting leftist drivel a few dozen times a day. Why?!?!?!?

Eli

Do you have any particular source for this? Rabbi Kahane was 15-1/2 years old in 1948, so the events were probably known to him from conversations with affected individuals and from reading contemporary news accounts.

Kahane, iirc, uses weasel words that make you think he means to say the Mizrahim were deported, when in reality they were just egged on by both the zionists and mobs at home to leave. He just says, iirc, that there was a "population transfer" as opposed to them actually getting the boot.
btw, there is no reason why to doubt Kahane would have lied to forward his agenda, afaik.

I just want to know which books you have read, or which Jews from Arab nations you have interviewed, to be so knowledgable about a subject that happened long before you were born.

I'm not observant? 
I'm not American? I don't have US citizenship for a series of dumb bureaucratic technicalities. My dad was a US citizen. I grew up in the US- and I'm certainly more American than a lot of people who have a US passport and can't even speak English...
Besides, there's Britons, Canadians, South Africans, Canadians here too...
I'm not Israeli? Are you? How do you know I'm not an Israeli citizen? 

Could you imagine how boring this would be if everyone thought the same way and said the same things? Try creating an online forum just for yourself and let's see how much fun you have....

My mom was Sephardi and since there wasn't much a Greek kehillah where she grew up, she grew up surrounded by Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Iraqis, etc. She even spoke Arabic... Did I mention she was born in the early 1930s?

Again, could you be more wrong? Unfortunately I'm not on my old computer, I'd compiled graphs illustrating Jewish population in the middle east prior to 1948, mid-1950s, and today. Highlights included total deportation/transfer from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Jordan (for many years), and several others. Majority deportation/transfer includes Yemen, Egypt, Morocco, Uzbekistan, and again several others. This deportation/transfer/whatever entails MILLIONS of Jews, most of which had any assets they couldn't carry seized. Saying being "egged on by,,, mobs.. to leave" doesn't count as forcible removal is no better than "just following orders", both were encouraged if not directly ordered by the governments.
And what's wrong with forcible transfer of illegal occupiers anyway? Most have NO legitimate claim to any land near E"Y, they came for the free food and housing the UN has been giving out the last 60 years and the promises of free land a housing after the "victorious arab armies drive the Jews into the sea."


You're calling Rabbi Kahane, one of the most respected men of the past century, a liar? Are you serious?

Eli

I see. Perhaps if she had grown up with some Jews, she might have heard a different story.

haha very funny
They were all Jews.

Yes, I'm calling Martin Kahane, a former FBI agent who was married to a goyta and then denied it, a liar.

That's a great way to push the Jews back into the sea.

From your profile:

That screams non-observant to me, not sure how the rest perceive it.

You've been asked if you're an American - as I recall you declined to answer or answered negatively - and you like to post your opinions on American politics.

And I generally abstain from their politics.

IIRC you have said you aren't.

Honest intellectual discussion is one thing, but you're just wrong on so many things in so many ways.

Define "Sephardi" please. She was close to 50 when she had you?

Eli

You're dumb enough to think "Extreme Reform" is anything more than a joke. How old are you? Ask your mommy or the lunch lady if they think "Extreme Reform" could possibly be said with a straight face...

Well, plenty of people have opinions on American politics... last time I checked everybody has a right to express their opinions...

Because you don't know Jack Squat about them and you know you'd be making a fool of yourself by doing so.

I said I'm not Israeli. I said I'm not a US citizen. Never vice-versa.

It just goes waaay over your head, that's all. Next time I'll try using simpler words and shorter sentences to give you a shot.

Her father was a Ladino-speaking Jew from Greece who claimed to be a descendant of Spanish Jews. Is that
 good enough for you? 44, and I did mention that I had a maternal half-brother who was much older than me and *Israeli*...

Google "Heeb Magazine" and such and ask me that again. It also says you're under 30 and divorced, are you lying there as well?

Except Americans really don't (and shouldn't) care what foreignors think concerning our domestic politics.

Just because you're wrong doesn't make me ignorant or stupid.

Um OK what exactly are you?

Again, just because you're wrong doesn't make me ignorant or stupid.

I was asking because many call any non-Ashkenazi "Sephardic".

OK, and?

And...


First, show me where he was ever named "Martin", I've never seen that before.
Second, he was an FBI informant, not an agent, providing tips about anti-Semitic activities. Rather odd that the JDL gets attacked for informing on nazis while the ADL is praised for informing on Jews wouldn't you say?
Third, it is widely known that he had some involvement with an emotionally disturbed woman that committed suicide in her 20s. The extent of the relationship has never been factually documented to my knowledge.
And the "$10,000" was actually $40,000, and that was in addition to compensation for any real property lost. And it would have been a bargain compared to the billions spent annually defending Jews against the arabs, not to mention the thousands of Jewish lives lost.

Eli

100% agree with krum that kicking 1 million people out of their homes is a drastic violation of international law. (Although to be clear, we are using the technical definition of ethnic cleansing, which means forced transfer, rather than the colloquial usage which is synonymous with genocide.)

HOWEVER.

It is ALSO ethnic cleansing to kick thousands of Jews out of their homes because they are Jewish. Kahane's idea was terribly immoral, but the disengagement was the same exact thing. I don't understand how anyone can be entirely against Kahane and entirely for the disengagement, unless expulsion of Jews "doesn't count."

Yet even so, I supported the disengagement - not because I think it was morally defensible, but because I believe the cost (in lives) to do the more moral thing for the settlers was too high to justify. I recognize that the disengagement was immoral ethnic cleansing - I just think that there was no choice.

If I thought that Kahane's plan was workable, I might hold my nose. But it's not just immoral, it's something much worse - it's unrealistic. It's totally a fantasy. There's nowhere to send these people.

Now, there's nothing immoral (or unworkable) about voluntary deportation - if Israel offered to pay an incentive to any Palestinian who had a place to go, on condition they never come back, it would be hard to take issue with that. But that's the point - any Palestinian who has anywhere to go has already left! You think they are sitting there waiting for an incentive?

I'm sure you can check Wikipedia, or the Encyclopaedia Britannica, or just google it

What's it to you?

I was always against disengagement, and I'm still against any prospects of further disengagement. Disengagement was also a violation of the most basic form of  common morals and decency... even if by international law the settlers were illegal and it wasn't technically a violation of international law to expell them.

huh?

I did. It isn't there. Did you make it up?

Just curious. You remind me a bit of a "Sephardic Jew" that was a regular in a chatroom I frequented, she was outed as an arab plant some time later, on the payroll of hizballah or hamas or somebody to try to sway Jewish opinion against Israel and towards islam.

Eli

There is no "international law" violation by having settlers in the "disputed territories"! No country on the planet claims these areas, Gaza is under no control and Judea/Samaria is under Israeli administration. Egypt and Jordan formally surrendered any and all claim over 20 years ago.
The only "occupied territory" is the Golan Heights.

Eli

I give up. בעסער צו פֿאַרלירן מיט אַ חכם אַלס צו געווינען מיט א נאַר

As well you should. You're wrong and I've requested you cite sources for what you've stated as fact several times, you have declined.

Anglit bevakesha?

Eli

Click to view attachment

Short sightedness pure and simple. (That or you were just gullible.) Now you and the whole wide world see how warped your logic was and how the situation is far worse than it ever was before the disengagement. Today's war is Sharon's legacy. That and destroying the Jewish lives of just about all the Jews that lived in Gush Katif. Yes, the cost was far better this way. Do me a favor and don't be my accountant.

Quoted for posterity....
I'm going to hold you to this......

Oh and Ain hachi Nami, if it was good enough for the 7 nations, it is good enough for Muhammed too.....

In the past you have posted some very anti-American sentiments on this site [with respect to culture and politics], so while I think it's perfectly fine for non-Americans to express their opinions regarding the U.S., I also think it's quite fair for someone to ask you what citizenship you hold and in what country you currently live [although of course you have every right not to answer].

Sigh.

Pledge allegiance to this state? I don't know many Jews who would right now. Baruch Hashem, the State is not an Arab state, not a British ruled state, not a Turk ruled State... and it gives us a great amount to pray to Hashem for every day. Please Hashem, send us true leaders. Please Hashem, send us true courts of true justice. There is so much to praise about how well this State serves our need for prayers.

Simplistic sayings are not going to solve the very tangled web of our Land today.

Eliyahu, You're My Man!
Thanks

פונקט פערקרט!
מהיכא תיתי ?

you are disgustingly moronic and terrible distorter of history. wth do you mean jews werent forced out of arab countries? what would you know about it anyway? ask my mother in law, she and her whole family were chased out of the country without any of their property, and not by "zionist instigators." What you say is insane and evil and insulting to jews. arab lovers like you are the reason jews are killed here, like the 8 jews killed in merkaz harav tonight. you make me want to vomit.

What just happened in Merkaz Harav is a tragedy. I don't know that there's anyone besides the evil murderers yimach shmam to blame, but don't you blame me for it. If anything, peaceniks like me want to make peace precisely so these aweful events shouldn't happen.

When you're ready to discuss the topic in a civilized manner, feel free to start a new topic.