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Goldfish
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine...;pagewanted=all
(snip)
QUOTE
One day last fall, a young Israeli woman named Sharon went with her fiancé to the Tel Aviv Rabbinate to register to marry. They are not religious, but there is no civil marriage in Israel. The rabbinate, a government bureaucracy, has a monopoly on tying the knot between Jews. The last thing Sharon expected to be told that morning was that she would have to prove — before a rabbinic court, no less — that she was Jewish. It made as much sense as someone doubting she was Sharon, telling her that the name written in her blue government-issue ID card was irrelevant, asking her to prove that she was she.

Sharon is a small woman in her late 30s with shoulder-length brown hair. For privacy’s sake, she prefers to be identified by only her first name. She grew up on a kibbutz when kids were still raised in communal children’s houses. She has two brothers who served in Israeli combat units. She loved the green and quiet of the kibbutz but was bored, and after her own military service she moved to the big city, which is the standard kibbutz story. Now she is a Tel Aviv professional with a master’s degree, a job with a major H.M.O. and a partner — when this story starts, a fiancé — who is “in computers.”

This stereotypical biography did not help her any more at the rabbinate than the line on her birth certificate listing her nationality as Jewish. Proving you are Jewish to Israel’s state rabbinate can be difficult, it turns out, especially if you came to Israel from the United States — or, as in Sharon’s case, if your mother did.

In recent years, the state’s Chief Rabbinate and its branches in each Israeli city have adopted an institutional attitude of skepticism toward the Jewish identity of those who enter its doors. And the type of proof that the rabbinate prefers is peculiarly unsuited to Jewish life in the United States. The Israeli government seeks the political and financial support of American Jewry. It welcomes American Jewish immigrants. Yet the rabbinate, one arm of the state, increasingly treats American Jews as doubtful cases: not Jewish until proved so.

More than any other issue, the question of Who is a Jew? has repeatedly roiled relations between Israel and American Jewry. Psychologically, it is an argument over who belongs to the family. In the past, the casus belli was conversion: Would the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship to any Jew coming to Israel, apply to those converted to Judaism by non-Orthodox rabbis? Now, as Sharon’s experience indicates, the status of Jews by birth is in question. Equally important, the dividing line is no longer between Orthodox and non-Orthodox. The rabbinate’s handling of the issue has placed it on one side of an ideological fissure within Orthodox Judaism itself, between those concerned with making sure no stranger enters the gates and those who fear leaving sisters and brothers outside.

Seth Farber is an American-born Orthodox rabbi whose organization — Itim, the Jewish Life Information Center — helps Israelis navigate the rabbinic bureaucracy. He explained to me recently that the rabbinate’s standards of proof are now stricter than ever, and stricter than most American Jews realize. Referring to the Jewish federations, the central communal and philanthropic organizations of American Jewry, he said, “Eighty percent of federation leaders probably wouldn’t be able to reach the bar.” To assist people like Sharon, Farber has become a genealogical sleuth. He is the first to warn, though, that solving individual cases cannot solve a deeper crisis.

Judaism, traditionally, is matrilineal: every child of a Jewish mother is automatically considered a Jew. Zvi Zohar, a professor of law and Jewish studies at Bar-Ilan University, told me that in Judaism’s classical view of itself, Jews are best understood as a “large extended family” that accepted a covenant with God. Those who didn’t practice the faith remained part of the family, even if traditionally they were regarded as black sheep. Converts were adopted members of the clan. Today the meaning of being Jewish is disputed — a faith? a nationality? — but in Israeli society the principle of matrilineal descent remains widely accepted. Sharon’s mother was Jewish, so Sharon knew that she was, too. And yet it seemed impossible to provide evidence that would persuade the rabbinate.

Sharon left the office infuriated. Her mother was Jewish enough to leave affluent America for Israel; her brothers had fought for the Jewish state. Now, she felt, she was being told, “For that you’re good enough, but to be considered Jews for religious purposes you’re not.”
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
There must be some question as to her mother's lineage. The Rabbinut keeps its own lists as to who is REALLY Jewish, and who is "Jewish" according to the Law of Return and if they are making trouble, it is probably for a good reason.....
Most secular people are NOT put through the wringer as long as they bring an appropriate proof of Judaism when they make aliyah......
Goldfish
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 2 2008, 07:43 PM) *
There must be some question as to her mother's lineage. The Rabbinut keeps its own lists as to who is REALLY Jewish, and who is "Jewish" according to the Law of Return and if they are making trouble, it is probably for a good reason.....
Most secular people are NOT put through the wringer as long as they bring an appropriate proof of Judaism when they make aliyah......

It helps if you read the whole article.
Shuli
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 2 2008, 07:46 PM) *
It helps if you read the whole article.

I read it; what's wrong with his comments?
Goldfish
QUOTE (Shuli @ Mar 2 2008, 07:48 PM) *
I read it; what's wrong with his comments?

I think the article makes it clear that the problem is that she's from a family that's been Reform for many generations and that's what's setting off the red flags -- and that this problem is not limited to her.

Though I suppose K-Rebbe may have some inside information that I am lacking. ph34r.gif
Shuli
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 2 2008, 07:54 PM) *
I think the article makes it clear that the problem is that she's from a family that's been Reform for many generations and that's what's setting off the red flags -- and that this problem is not limited to her.

Though I suppose K-Rebbe may have some inside information that I am lacking. ph34r.gif

Guess it wasn't clear to everyone, 'cuz thats not what it said to me.
krumlikeapretzel
You asked me how I knew
 that you are a Jew;
I of course replied,
 "noses never lie,
yours was in my eye."
Rachel8
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 2 2008, 07:43 PM) *
There must be some question as to her mother's lineage. The Rabbinut keeps its own lists as to who is REALLY Jewish, and who is "Jewish" according to the Law of Return and if they are making trouble, it is probably for a good reason.....
Most secular people are NOT put through the wringer as long as they bring an appropriate proof of Judaism when they make aliyah......

I've honestly never heard of such problems and I know many many non-O Jews who have made aliyah over the years. From the article it seems that this is mostly about getting married in Israel rather than making aliyah, where as the article stated even those with one Jewish parent or grandparent are allowed to immigrate.

QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 2 2008, 07:54 PM) *
I think the article makes it clear that the problem is that she's from a family that's been Reform for many generations and that's what's setting off the red flags -- and that this problem is not limited to her.

Not even just Reform, according to the article they aren't readily accepting letters of proof from Conservative rabbis either, which is surprising in that the Conservative movement does continue to follow matrilineal descent.

QUOTE
Farber approached and made his case to one. He showed the series of birth certificates of Sharon’s maternal line, with the surnames Goldstein, Mersky, Reuben. “These are all clearly Jewish names,” he said.

I truly hope that these rabbinical decisions don't rest upon whether or not a person has a Jewish surname. I can tell you that as a child of two parents with very non-Jewish family names, that one's last name is not proof that one is or is not Jewish. I have met plenty of people over the years with Jewish sounding last names who are not Jewish, while I with a totally non-Jewish last name can easily trace my roots back to Orthodox relatives via matrilineal descent. Last names got changed for lots of reasons in the last century and are therefore proof of nothing.

In fact, just to show that the Conservative rabbis do require proof that the couple is Jewish prior to officiating at a wedding, I can tell you that when my dad called up the large Conservative shul in Toronto to make arrangements for my parents' wedding and told his last name as well as my mother's maiden name, he was promptly told that only Jewish people could be married at a Conservative synagogue, as if my dad was a non-Jew just calling up to book a large reception hall. laugh.gif
Goldfish
QUOTE (Rachel8 @ Mar 2 2008, 09:20 PM) *
I truly hope that these rabbinical decisions don't rest upon whether or not a person has a Jewish surname. I can tell you that as a child of two parents with very non-Jewish family names, that one's last name is not proof that one is or is not Jewish. I have met plenty of people over the years with Jewish sounding last names who are not Jewish, while I with a totally non-Jewish last name can easily trace my roots back to Orthodox relatives via matrilineal descent. Last names got changed for lots of reasons in the last century and are therefore proof of nothing.

I this is more true than it used to be. Fifty or a hundred years ago, if your last name was Rosenberg (for example) there was almost no chance that you wouldn't be Jewish.
krumlikeapretzel
QUOTE (Rachel8 @ Mar 2 2008, 08:20 PM) *
Not even just Reform, according to the article they aren't readily accepting letters of proof from Conservative rabbis either, which is surprising in that the Conservative movement does continue to follow matrilineal descent...  In fact, just to show that the Conservative rabbis do require proof that the couple is Jewish prior to officiating at a wedding,
This is old news. There are 3 issues at play here:

1. Conservative conversion is not recognized by the Israeli Rabbinate since it doesn't fulfill the requirements of halacha with regards to commitment to mitzvah observance, the people present at the ceremony, etc.
2. Conservative divorces and annulments are not recognized by the Israeli 
Rabbinate since they don't always follow the requirements of halacha. (annulments specifically, have no theoretic post-talmudic precedent, or any practical precedent whatsoever). This addresses the issue of "Who is a mamzer?" which imho is a much greater halachic concern than "who is a Jew?"
3. The Israeli Rabbinate doesn't have good realtions with the Conservative movement, so they go beyond the 
letter of the law in dismissing anything coming from there.
Spiffy
They gave my grandfather a hard time when he was making aliya. It's not necessarily restricted to marriages. I honestly don't remember how the whole thing played out, I just remember him being VERY upset about it.
schiffschul
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 3 2008, 02:49 AM) *
Fifty or a hundred years ago, if your last name was Rosenberg (for example) there was almost no chance that you wouldn't be Jewish.

You'd be surprised.

In pre-war Austria this was so common that people used to ask,' Jud' oder Graf?' ('Jew or Count?') whenever someone introduced himself as Rosenberg.
brianna
I wouldn't know how to prove I'm Jewish if asked. Would you?
krumlikeapretzel
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 2 2008, 08:49 PM) *
Fifty... years ago, if your last name was Rosenberg... there was almost no chance that you wouldn't be Jewish.

This debunks the "fifty years ago if your name was Rosenberg there was almost no chance that you wouldn't be Jewish" myth, and proves Godwin's law once again...
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE (brianna @ Mar 3 2008, 03:08 PM) *
I wouldn't know how to prove I'm Jewish if asked. Would you?

You get a letter from a recognized Rabbi on their list.
Or you can bring your parents or maternal grandparent's kesuva and birth certificates leading up to you.
Sometimes if they are feeling generous they will accept pictures of tombstones (with proper documentation that they are actually related to you).
Goldfish
QUOTE (schiffschul @ Mar 3 2008, 07:42 AM) *
You'd be surprised.

In pre-war Austria this was so common that people used to ask,' Jud' oder Graf?' ('Jew or Count?') whenever someone introduced himself as Rosenberg.

No, I wouldn't at all be surprised, because I didn't say that there'd be "no chance," I said "almost no chance"; also, I specified 50 years ago, which is decidedly apres-guerre.

I suppose what I also should have specified was "in America," though I thought this was understood based on the article -- that this woman's family had been in America for years.
I also suppose I might have chosen a better name than Rosenberg.

You people miss the forest for the trees sometimes.

QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 3 2008, 08:46 AM) *
This debunks the "fifty years ago if your name was Rosenberg there was almost no chance that you wouldn't be Jewish" myth, and proves Godwin's law once again...

I'm surprised you don't feel at home in Israel, Krum. They're as obsessed with the Holocaust as you are.
schiffschul
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 3 2008, 02:23 PM) *
No, I wouldn't at all be surprised, ... "; also, I specified 50 years ago, which is decidedly apres-guerre.

Have a look at your post again, you wrote,
QUOTE
Fifty or a hundred years ago,
.
Anyway, the point is that Jewish 'sounding' family names cannot really serve as reliable proof, particularly amongst Ashkenasim.
Goldfish
QUOTE (schiffschul @ Mar 3 2008, 09:36 AM) *
Have a look at your post again, you wrote, .

Yes, 50 or 100, I know. But I specified 50 for a reason. If I'd've meant 100, I would have written 100.

QUOTE
Anyway, the point is that Jewish 'sounding' family names cannot really serve as reliable proof, particularly amongst Ashkenasim.

Not today it can't, but I still maintain that further back (and as the article itself asserts) when intermarriage was far lower, a Jewish last name meant you were Jewish. Frankly, I can remember when I was young this was still a mostly valid assumption and I'm not 50 years old.

Perhaps this is a more uniquely American phenomenon.
krumlikeapretzel
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 3 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Yes, 50 or 100, I know. But I specified 50 for a reason. If I'd've meant 100, I would have written 100.


Not today it can't, but I still maintain that further back (and as the article itself asserts) when intermarriage was far lower, a Jewish last name meant you were Jewish. Frankly, I can remember when I was young this was still a mostly valid assumption and I'm not 50 years old.

Perhaps this is a more uniquely American phenomenon.
I think your definition of "Jewish last name" is too broad. 

Names like:
Goldberg, Rosenberg, Feldman, Berman, Brenner, Klein, Roth, Feinstein, etc. might be popular with Jews, or even much more popular with Jews than non-Jews, but were never exclusively Jewish... The same thing can be said about many Sephardi and Mizrahi names like 
Alfie, Atri, Lopes, Toledano, Asoulin, Haddad, etc.

On the other hand, names like:
Sandler, Rokeach, Peretz, Katz, Cohen, Segal, Levin, Rabinowitz, Margolis, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, etc. probably were a very strong suggestion that the person in questi
on was Jewish 50 years ago, and is to a somewhat lesser extent so even today...
Goldfish
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 3 2008, 10:05 AM) *
I think your definition of "Jewish last name" is too broad. 

Okay.
Tova
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 3 2008, 08:52 AM) *
You get a letter from a recognized Rabbi on their list.
Or you can bring your parents or maternal grandparent's kesuva and birth certificates leading up to you.
Sometimes if they are feeling generous they will accept pictures of tombstones (with proper documentation that they are actually related to you).

For most people most of these things are not so easy to accomplish (in the general Jewish population). What if there isn't a ketubah, it's missing, or it was perform non-Orthodox years and years ago. Birth certificates don't list religion. And for tombstones, not as much of a help as you'd guess- some immigrants (and particular some of those I've seen from Germany) decided to have their matzevot to read only in English, but are in a Jewish cemetery, through the auspices of a Jewish funeral home. This is probably a problem for those who've been in America (in this situation) for several generations, and it's doubtful the first few generations will have Orthodox connections-- and if they're from Europe you might be lucky to find documents from their home city if births, marriages, etc. were actually filed.
brianna
My parents are BTs so their parents didn't have kesubas. I'm certain they're all Jewish based on their histories, but I don't have any real proof.

The truth is that when it gets down to it, I look Jewish, I've heard my grandparents stories - I have a Jewish identity. But that all sounds rather hollow. I'm Jewish because I'm Jewish, damnit!
Tova
QUOTE (brianna @ Mar 3 2008, 11:47 AM) *
My parents are BTs so their parents didn't have kesubas. I'm certain they're all Jewish based on their histories, but I don't have any real proof.

The truth is that when it gets down to it, I look Jewish, I've heard my grandparents stories - I have a Jewish identity. But that all sounds rather hollow. I'm Jewish because I'm Jewish, damnit!

Photos, matzevot, other documents- which may have indicated Jewish, European (if that's were you're from) documentation- if you can trace the lineage you could probably find the pinkas kehilot or other docs of assistance.

brianna
QUOTE (Tova @ Mar 3 2008, 11:50 AM) *
Photos, matzevot, other documents- which may have indicated Jewish, European (if that's were you're from) documentation- if you can trace the lineage you could probably find the pinkas kehilot or other docs of assistance.

How do photos prove anything? I may have some but they don't go back too far. As for documents, I wish I knew. Maybe I'll ask my parents at some point.

The point is that it's pretty hard to prove.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE (Tova @ Mar 3 2008, 06:38 PM) *
For most people most of these things are not so easy to accomplish (in the general Jewish population). What if there isn't a ketubah, it's missing, or it was perform non-Orthodox years and years ago. Birth certificates don't list religion. And for tombstones, not as much of a help as you'd guess- some immigrants (and particular some of those I've seen from Germany) decided to have their matzevot to read only in English, but are in a Jewish cemetery, through the auspices of a Jewish funeral home. This is probably a problem for those who've been in America (in this situation) for several generations, and it's doubtful the first few generations will have Orthodox connections-- and if they're from Europe you might be lucky to find documents from their home city if births, marriages, etc. were actually filed.

In that case, forget Israel for a minute, in general how do we al pi halacha know people are Jewish if they claim to be? It's one thing if a frum Jew comes along, he has a chezkas Kashrus. But someone who hasn't had a frum relative in 3 or 4 generations and has a limited connection to Judaism can be a bit problematic. Especially with all the intermarriage and bogus conversions today...
Bird
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 3 2008, 06:55 PM) *
In that case, forget Israel for a minute, in general how do we al pi halacha know people are Jewish if they claim to be? It's one thing if a frum Jew comes along, he has a chezkas Kashrus. But someone who hasn't had a frum relative in 3 or 4 generations and has a limited connection to Judaism can be a bit problematic. Especially with all the intermarriage and bogus conversions today...

Yep. depending on the stated family history they may need a gerus li'chumrah.
Tova
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 3 2008, 11:55 AM) *
In that case, forget Israel for a minute, in general how do we al pi halacha know people are Jewish if they claim to be? It's one thing if a frum Jew comes along, he has a chezkas Kashrus. But someone who hasn't had a frum relative in 3 or 4 generations and has a limited connection to Judaism can be a bit problematic. Especially with all the intermarriage and bogus conversions today...

What about other potential proofs- siddurim with names, chumashim, tefillin, yarzheit listings and other religious articles.

Not as if US immigration papers listed religion- they used to list race and nationality and was changed probably in the late 1930s/early 40s to nationality only.

This certainly makes things confusing and difficult for those in need.
krumlikeapretzel
Then again, by the year T.C. 4768, even the uber Jewish names I mentioned will mean nothing...


Margulis
Juli Mizrahi (née Niwashino)
Shemmy
I have proof tongue.gif
Rachel8
QUOTE (brianna @ Mar 3 2008, 11:47 AM) *
My parents are BTs so their parents didn't have kesubas.

I understand that your parents grandparents apparently didn't have a ketubah, but your statement above makes it sound like that is commonplace among the non-Orthodox, and in my experience that is definitely not the case. Certainly most if not all of the married non-Orthodox Jews I know have ketubot.
Shemmy
QUOTE (Rachel8 @ Mar 3 2008, 03:21 PM) *
I understand that your parents apparently didn't have a ketubah, but your statement above makes it sound like that is commonplace among the non-Orthodox, and in my experience that is definitely not the case. Certainly most if not all of the married non-Orthodox Jews I know have ketubot.



You misread the post. Her grandparents did not have a ketuba.
Rachel8
QUOTE (Shemmy @ Mar 3 2008, 03:35 PM) *
You misread the post. Her grandparents did not have a ketuba.

Sorry, it was actually a typo. I understood she was talking about her grandparents.
Penina
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 3 2008, 08:52 AM) *
You get a letter from a recognized Rabbi on their list.
Or you can bring your parents or maternal grandparent's kesuva and birth certificates leading up to you.
Sometimes if they are feeling generous they will accept pictures of tombstones (with proper documentation that they are actually related to you).

Easier said than done.

My parents got married in a Conservative synagogue, they have a katuba, but not one that the rabbinut would follow. When you have family who isn't religious, they don't always see the value of a ketubah. Because they aren't fancy peieces of art, sometimes they don't even know what they're looking for. They throw them away when cleaning out the homes of deceased relatives. I have no such documentation other than the oral tradition of my family. I have no pictures.

I find that this practice is so hurtful to those of us who are BT. Here we are trying to return to our birthright of the Jewish faith, and we're being punished because our family didn't keep halacha.
Tova
Genealogical research can be of assistance-- (it just so happens that I fell/stumbled on a genealogy back to 1798 for direct maternal line)
Shemmy
QUOTE (Penina @ Mar 5 2008, 10:09 AM) *
I find that this practice is so hurtful to those of us who are BT. Here we are trying to return to our birthright of the Jewish faith, and we're being punished because our family didn't keep halacha.


Do you feel the same way when it's applied to the Bene Anousim or Beta Israel?
Arizona
Ironically, I think the only ones who can prove their Jewishness with absolute certainty are those who converted.

However, for myself, I have my own kesuvah, my parents', and my son's bris certificate (hey, if he's Jewish, I am too, right?)
Penina
QUOTE (Shemmy @ Mar 5 2008, 11:19 AM) *
Do you feel the same way when it's applied to the Bene Anousim or Beta Israel?

Of course. Just because someone doesn't practice in the way we recognize as Judaism, doesn't mean they weren't Jewish. We need to be mindful of the fact that Jews were everywhere, not just Eastern Europe or Spain.
shaya_getzl
QUOTE (Penina @ Mar 5 2008, 10:09 AM) *
I find that this practice is so hurtful to those of us who are BT. Here we are trying to return to our birthright of the Jewish faith, and we're being punished because our family didn't keep halacha.

You're not being punished. It's a fact of life that by deciding to abandon halacha whatever ancestors did so explicitly put their descendants in harm's way. It's fine and honorable to find a workaround, but don't take offense if someone wants to make sure they're actually getting married to a Jew when there is ancestral doubt.

Moreover, there is a long standing practice that a community that does not recognize rabbinical Judaism (read: Gemora and what's based on it), is not considered "Rabbinicaly Jewish". Case in point - Samaritans, or them Ethiopians.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE (Penina @ Mar 5 2008, 05:09 PM) *
Easier said than done.

My parents got married in a Conservative synagogue, they have a katuba, but not one that the rabbinut would follow. When you have family who isn't religious, they don't always see the value of a ketubah. Because they aren't fancy peieces of art, sometimes they don't even know what they're looking for. They throw them away when cleaning out the homes of deceased relatives. I have no such documentation other than the oral tradition of my family. I have no pictures.

I find that this practice is so hurtful to those of us who are BT. Here we are trying to return to our birthright of the Jewish faith, and we're being punished because our family didn't keep halacha.

It's not so hard, if you're frum and a member of a community, most rabbis will "vouch" for you without making you jump through hoops....
I think all the Young Israel, Agudah and OU Rabbis are on the list, and if not they know someone who is....
krumlikeapretzel
I once heard that Yitzchak Rabin had suggested that during the initial interview the sochnut official 
should "accidentally" drop a penny and if the interviewee picks it up, then it's sufficient proof of Jewishness. Then again, I also heard the aliens were 
going to reveal their control of the US government at the turn of the millenium 
in Times Square, so there...
brianna
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 5 2008, 05:03 PM) *
I once heard that Yitzchak Rabin had suggested that during the initial interview the sochnut official
should "accidentally" drop a penny and if the interviewee picks it up, then it's sufficient proof of Jewishness.

Not a bad idea.
lyric
There's a big court case going on in London right now (secular court, not Beis Din) regarding the JFS School (Jews Free School), a big state school in NW London catering to the traditional rather than orthodox Jewish kid, but it's run on orthodox lines. The JFS refused to take in a boy whose mother converted from Catholicism through a Reform Synagogue which is not recognised by the Chief Rabbi and the London Beis Din. The court case is trying to prove racial discrimination. You should have heard the radio presenters on the talk shows today. "What's "not Jewish ENOUGH?" Catholics and most religions accept converts with open arms, why don't Jews?" and "what sort of rubbish is this maternal lineage to make you Jewish? that's real racism! Why is this religion so exclusive?" They were having a field day out there.
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