?

both should be legal.

Agreed (to an extent). (The thread was started under the assumption that any frum Jew would of course no doubt be pro-illegalizing both, and pro-Prohibition. Like my roommate.)

Yes. Regulated and taxed, but legal.

Prostitution is already legal in parts of Nevada.

They say that when Ben Gurion saw a prostitute on the street in Tel-Aviv the first time he said it made him happy that Jews were finally becoming "normal people." (Then again they say his wife used to bring home a roast pig hidden in a stroller, so there...) Prostitution is legal in Israel, accordingly.

I think drugs are the source of greater ills to society at large, compared to prostitution.

Oh please...

Hey mon, pass da killa...

Why do you say so?

'coz me posse be holdin' da best Jamaican gold dis side of Kingston..

Well in the sense that drugs cause people to be unproductive in terms of GDP, sure.

That's because they're illegal, costly to obtain, and in the domain of gangs and druglords.

So you're saying that the world would be better off with all drugs being legal and prostitution being illegal, than with prostitution being legal and all drugs being illegal? I find that hard to believe.

No, its because extended drug use fries brain cells and renders people the mental equivalent of a McDonald's shake.
I'm all for summary execution of dealers.

yum. Chocolate or Vanilla?

Seriously speaking, that varies a lot from one drug to another, and with the quantities consumed. I think that legalization of drugs would not only put a large sector of the mob out of business, but it would allow for quality controls and dosage controls for all drugs, and create tax revenue. That would also help greatly reduce the number of deaths by overdose, and make it harder for teenagers to obt
ain drugs.  And last, but not least, it would allow law enforcement to focus on o
ther, more pressing problems.
There are quite a few legal over-the-counter drugs, not to mention alcohol,  which also affect the brain after extended abuse...
The same arguments could be said about legal prostitution: prostitutes could be routinely tested for STD, required to observe necessary sanitary practices, and it would generate taxes, put mobsters out of business and free up law enforcement resources.

Exactly what statistical study drove you to this conclusion ?

That's not use, that's abuse. Abuse of just about anything fries brain cells; but people who drive themselves into the ground with drugs, probably weren't much to begin with.


One grownup supplies another grownup with something he'd like to use to make himself feel better; that sounds to me way more legal then when one grownup sells another grownup a device which sole purpose is murder.

Simple logic. Although it does depend on the drug. People can do a little marajuana here and there on the weekends and still be hugely productive. Highly addictive drugs that require massive amounts of time and money tend to make people less productive at work than they could be.

Neither.

"Marajuana" does rot people's brains in a way, but that's not a reason to prohibit it ...


There is a special sort of people who will manage to screw up with drugs or without them. But for normal people, doesn't your logic not make sense - if their drugs require massive amounts of money, they will be _more_ productive in order to get all that money, wouldn't they ? Most people who use will tell you they're way more productive when they have what they're after ...

Well your reasoning would make sense if you don't take into account that by their very nature the highly addictive, very expensive drugs we're talking about (heroine is one good example) tend to impair people's ability to function well at most legitimate jobs.

What about alcohol?

Well there are definitely people who have problems with alcohol. The difference is mainly the expense.

By the way, I hope you guys aren't getting the wrong idea. Did I not say at the beginning of this thread that I am for the legalization of both drugs and prostitution? I'm a libertarian so yeah.

Narcotics are expensive mainly because they're illegal.

I'm not sure prostitution should be illegal. What does society gain by banning it? Men looking to enjoy themselves can easily find a woman anywhere these days, the difference here is that at least she'd be paid for being used. In Amsterdam, prostitutes are required to go for medical check-ups to be able to stay in business. They pay taxes.

Drugs otoh: by making them illegal, you are making them harder for people to obtain. Many people's lives have been ruined by drugs. Look what happened in the 60's. By limiting the use, you are limiting the problem.

There is no drug currently illegal that does not have a deleterious effect on its user. And an addictive drug by its very nature will not be used in moderation.
Legalization will increase drug use. This is a certainty. Taxing the stuff above a certain level will encourage illegal black market supplies, like cigarettes in NYC.
If you want to say there are legal drugs that cause problems today, my response is how is legalizing more dangerous drugs going to help that problem? You dont solve a problem by making it worse.

1. Marijuana is not physiologically addictive.
2. Legalization will decrease drug distribution-related crimes and deaths due to poor quality drugs.
3. Legalization will decrease drug use amongst teens.
4. Legalization will decrease the amount of drug-related income by international terrorist organizations and rogue regimes.
5. I don't think it's the government's role to protect adults from themselves, nor do I feel that decreased drug use among adults is in and of itself a valid goal.
6. Many of these drugs, including Marijuana, Heroin and LSD, have legitimate medical uses.

I didn't say that.

1. That does not prevent people from using it habitually to the point of damaging themselves.
2. Debatable.
3. ROFLMAO! You've got to be kidding me!
4. Not at all. They can go "legitimate" or still supply lower priced drugs.
5. "Promote the general welfare" is one role of gov't. China before the communists is a good example of what happens when drug use goes unchecked. It wasnt pretty.
6. And can be so used even today with medical supervision. My older brother is a hospice doc and probably prescribes a ton of opiates a week. Totally legal.

What happened in the 60's that was so terrible and was related to drugs ?

The destruction of family values or some such nonsense.

Addictions and overdoses...?

Obviously these are all my opinions, so they're debatable by definition. As are your opinions.
But by having more competition and lowering prices it will hurt their bottom line, don't you think.
I can also remind you that the opium wars are a warning of how the enforcement of anti-drug laws can be disastrous as well. I could also cite that [alcohol] prohibition in the US was a complete fiasco...

I think both should be completely legal, but if I had to pick one it would be to ban hard drugs like Heroin and Crack....

I see no legitimate reason to ban softer drugs (except to continue fund inflated police and government budgets)...

The Opium Wars were the opposite of anti drug enforcement. The whole point was for the British to be able to sell opium. The Chinese were nearly impotent in part because their generals and most of the leading citizens were hooked on the ######.
This didnt end until Mao took power. His approach was common-sense. Any addict caught got the very best treatment available the first time. The second time he was executed. Drug dealers were executed. Within about 15 years what had been an intractable problem was basically a minor annoyance.
Prohibition is a poor example as alcohol is a very traditional American product and its use has been part of American culture from the very beginning.

Yea, right. As if the drugs are to blame, and not people. In the 1930's, many many times more people succumbed to alcoholism; the blame isn't on alcohol or it's producers but on the despair and sucky life. 60's, despite what they may teach in Beis Yaakov, sounds like was a pretty decent and interesting time, and there is no way all the older BTs would've brought a breath of relatively fresh air if it wasn't for 60's and the hippy attitudes ...

BYs don't teach about the 60s at all. They just talk about the spiritually desolate times we live in and the wonderous people who lived in the magical shtetls of Europe.

Suddenly you're sympathetic of Maoist ways and means ? Sounds very suspicious to me. Would you also like to adopt Mao's approach to people's right to bear arms ?


Traditional American product as in "Native American" or as in "Puritan", Protestant White America ?

Distilled spirits didn't become mainstream until mid 19th century. Alcohol and alcohol related problems ruined and continues to ruin scores and scores more lives and health then all the drugs together. It's not alcohol's fault; people have to get a grip and to assume responsibility for their actions and stop trying to hang them on inanimate objects.

So to put this in the right perspective, it's ok to deal in guns, even though guns have no other purpose then murder and there is nothing more antithetic to "live and let live" as enabling someone to commit murder. Moreover, a good chunk of Southern pawnshop's and other weapons dealers' business are street drug dealers and other common criminals. But that's all fine and covered as freedom of enterprise and secnod amendment.

But when an adult decides to supply another adult with substance that the other adult will ingest in the privacy of his own home, those are the people that our Mr. Dealer would like to see summarily executed in the Pol Pot - Mao style... Makes a lot of sense to me.


I'm sure they talk about the stupid promiscuous hippie junkies and their war on the Great White Hopes Messrs. Nixon and Reagan by whose sheer grace we're all breathing today ...

Also as far as underage kids are concerned. Alcohol is MUCH more difficult to procure than drugs....

For once you make a good point.


Your assumption that they're educated enough to even know about that is mistaken.

Come on. Both are as far as the closest unscrupulous adult ...

Except drugs are EVERYWHERE from maximum security prisons to Yeshivos. You don't even NEED to find an unscrupulous adult....

Alcohol is extremely easy to get. Here's what you do as a teen assuming you can't just take from your parents' supply:

1. Have a group of friends.
2. Have a 21 year old in that group of friends.
3. If that is not possible, have a girl in the group who is dating a guy who is 21.

It's that simple. Drugs on the other hand take illegal channels. Not everyone will have access. Alcohol is sold at grocery stores.

From what I hear, sometimes adults have no other ways to "score" then through schools ...

Most 16-17 year olds don't have 21 year old friends nor are they dating them...

I'm just speaking from my own experiences, drugs were EVERYWHERE and at most required one phone call, alcohol was always an effort (albeit usually a minor effort) to get.

Yeah public high schools offer a huge selection of drugs.

I would rather drugs (over prostitution) become legal.

I'm surprised most of the discussion here has turned towards the boring topic of drug legalization.

Because the other one is already legal for all intensive purposes ...

do you mean: For all intents and purposes

Of course it was the people, if they weren't getting the high from the drugs, it was from near suffocation or other "home remedies". And this has nothing to do with BY, I get to hear about it from parents who were growing up then. And trust me, they don't consider it a decent time at all. You can also blame it on their sucky lives all you like, but if the drugs weren't so readily availible, then it wouldn't have been that way.