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melech
1. Waking up before dawn. Laudable practice or incumbent halachah?

2. Why mention the korbanot here in this siman, especially since the Tur says really they should be said during the day, and not mention the korbanot passages together with the tamid in siman 48 or wherever that is?
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 3 2008, 02:48 PM) *
1. Waking up before dawn. Laudable practice or incumbent halachah?

2. Why mention the korbanot here in this siman, especially since the Tur says really they should be said during the day, and not mention the korbanot passages together with the tamid in siman 48 or wherever that is?


1. isn't it very clear from the language the Tur uses that it is only a laudable practice?

2. good question.
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 3 2008, 09:21 PM) *
1. isn't it very clear from the language the Tur uses that it is only a laudable practice?

He says, "tzarich". Tzarich ha-adam le-hitgaber ke-ari, which effectively means getting up to be able to greet the dawn.
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 3 2008, 09:38 PM) *
He says, "tzarich". Tzarich ha-adam le-hitgaber ke-ari, which effectively means getting up to be able to greet the dawn.


He says

לכן צריך האדם להתגבר כארי לעמוד בבקר לעבודת בוראו

Meaining in the morning.

and then he says:


וכ"ש אם ישכים קודם אור הבוקר לקום להתחנן לפני בוראו מה יופיו ומה טובו

Meaing it is only "laudable" before the light if day.
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 3 2008, 09:43 PM) *
He says

לכן צריך האדם להתגבר כארי לעמוד בבקר לעבודת בוראו

Meaining in the morning.

and then he says:


וכ"ש אם ישכים קודם אור הבוקר לקום להתחנן לפני בוראו מה יופיו ומה טובו

Meaing it is only "laudable" before the light if day.

That later quote is referring to getting up exceptionally early in order to say tikkun chatzot, or the equivalent. It's laudable to get up extra early to supplicate, but required before dawn.
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 3 2008, 09:45 PM) *
That later quote is referring to getting up exceptionally early in order to say tikkun chatzot, or the equivalent. It's laudable to get up extra early to supplicate, but required before dawn.


I understand that it says "you should wake up the morning and not have the morning wake you up". however, it says "morning", and then later it says
וכ"ש אם ישכים קודם אור הבוקר לקום

meaning the morning it was referring to until now, was when it is already light.
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 3 2008, 09:52 PM) *
I understand that it says "you should wake up the morning and not have the morning wake you up". however, it says "morning", and then later it says
וכ"ש אם ישכים קודם אור הבוקר לקום

meaning the morning it was referring to until now, was when it is already light.

It says kol she-kein if one arises before ohr ha-boker in order to supplicate, and goes on to explain that means when the ashmoret is changing - which means all the more so if one arises much before the light of day - which is laudable, but arising to welcome the dawn is obligatory.
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 4 2008, 07:05 AM) *
It says kol she-kein if one arises before ohr ha-boker in order to supplicate, and goes on to explain that means when the ashmoret is changing - which means all the more so if one arises much before the light of day - which is laudable, but arising to welcome the dawn is obligatory.



isnt the dawn "the first light of day" ? getting up before it would be before the first light of day. so when it says " kol she-kein if one arises before ohr ha-boker" mean that kol shkein if he wakes before the dawn, which implies that before this it was not talking about waking before the dawn?
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 4 2008, 11:47 AM) *
isnt the dawn "the first light of day" ? getting up before it would be before the first light of day. so when it says " kol she-kein if one arises before ohr ha-boker" mean that kol shkein if he wakes before the dawn, which implies that before this it was not talking about waking before the dawn?


לכן צריך האדם להתגבר כארי לעמוד בבקר לעבודת בוראו ואף אם ישיאנו יצרו בחורף לאמר איך תעמוד בבקר כי הקור גדול או ישיאנו בקיץ לאמר איך תעמוד ממטתך ועדיין לא שבעת משנתך התגבר עליו לקום שתהא אתה מעורר השחר ולא יהא הוא מעירך

Tzarich. One has to. One has to be me'oreir ha-shachar and get up before dawn.

וכ"ש אם ישכים קודם אור הבוקר לקום להתחנן לפני בוראו מה יופיו ומה טובו

And it's laudable if one arise well before the light of day specifically at...

וטוב למי שמקדים שיכוין לשעות שמשתנות המשמרות שהן בשליש הלילה ולסוף ב' שלישי הלילה ולסוף הליל'

In other words, not just before the light of day, but well before the light of day.
You have to get up by dawn to daven, but even earlier is laudable so you can supplicate regarding the Churban BHM, may it be speedily rebuilt in our days.


the Real Adiel
How can you not mention my favorite part of this siman?!?
Pinchas
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 4 2008, 08:16 PM) *
In other words, not just before the light of day, but well before the light of day.
You have to get up by dawn to daven, but even earlier is laudable so you can supplicate regarding the Churban BHM, may it be speedily rebuilt in our days.


Well then it's no different then the many other things people forget to do for the Churban.

In the age before electricity and modern heating I would like to suggest that the common practice was to go sleep much earlier and wake up when the rooster crowed (just before dawn) to maximize daylight. So waking up before dawn - once upon a time - was not such an exceptionally hard -or at least unusual - thing to do.
melech
QUOTE (Pinchas @ Mar 5 2008, 08:34 AM) *
In the age before electricity and modern heating I would like to suggest that the common practice was to go sleep much earlier and wake up when the rooster crowed (just before dawn) to maximize daylight. So waking up before dawn - once upon a time - was not such an exceptionally hard -or at least unusual - thing to do.

Right, that's true. If I remember, I'll scan something from Minhag Torah Yisrael which is a limud zechut for ignoring the injunction to awaken early. Sure there are limudei zechut, but the fact remains that limudei zechut are required to justify holy people seemingly acting contrary to the Shulchan Aruch.
Pinchas
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 5 2008, 03:48 PM) *
Right, that's true. If I remember, I'll scan something from Minhag Torah Yisrael which is a limud zechut for ignoring the injunction to awaken early. Sure there are limudei zechut, but the fact remains that limudei zechut are required to justify holy people seemingly acting contrary to the Shulchan Aruch.


Indeed.

Furthermore - there do exist holy people in our own day that do not require that limudei zechus for this halacha since they do follow it.
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 4 2008, 01:16 PM) *
in other words, not just before the light of day, but well before the light of day.
You have to get up by dawn to daven, but even earlier is laudable so you can supplicate regarding the Churban BHM, may it be speedily rebuilt in our days.


See how the Ramah in his very first words in the SA seems to have understood the Tur:


(יתגבר כארי לעמוד בבוקר לעבודת בוראו שיהא הוא מעורר השחר: הגה ועכ"פ לא יאחר זמן התפלה שהצבור מתפללין (טור
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 5 2008, 02:19 PM) *
See how the Ramah in his very first words in the SA seems to have understood the Tur:


(יתגבר כארי לעמוד בבוקר לעבודת בוראו שיהא הוא מעורר השחר: הגה ועכ"פ לא יאחר זמן התפלה שהצבור מתפללין (טור

That's from later on in the Tur towards the end, the very latest. But the Mechaber is still paskening that one needs to awaken before dawn [me'oreir ha-shachar].
Yehudi
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 5 2008, 02:22 PM) *
That's from later on in the Tur towards the end, the very latest. But the Mechaber is still paskening that one needs to awaken before dawn [me'oreir ha-shachar].


Yeah but the Ramah seems to have understood that those words of the Tur have to do with what the Mechaber just said. IOW while the Mechaber is saying that one needs to be "me'oreir ha-shachar" the Ramah adds on this citing the Tur that "al kol panim" you should not delay the time of prayer from the time that the congregation prays. Meaing this does have to do with the first part about being "me'oreir ha-shachar" .
melech
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 5 2008, 02:28 PM) *
Yeah but the Ramah seems to have understood that those words of the Tur have to do with what the Mechaber just said. IOW while the Mechaber is saying that one needs to be "me'oreir ha-shachar" the Ramah adds on this citing the Tur that "al kol panim" you should not delay the time of prayer from the time that the congregation prays. Meaing this does have to do with the first part about being "me'oreir ha-shachar" .

You have to be me'oreir ha-shachar al pi halachah, and al kol panim, at the very latest, you may not be late for davening, and it's laudable to awaken early enough before dawn to supplicate at the mishmarot.

The Mechaber is stating the obligation le-chatchilah to awaken before dawn and the Rama is saying at the very least, be-dia'avad, don't be late for davening.
Of course, if you want to be extra good, get up even earlier way before dawn to supplicate, as per the Tur.
melech
QUOTE (Pinchas)
In the age before electricity and modern heating I would like to suggest that the common practice was to go sleep much earlier and wake up when the rooster crowed (just before dawn) to maximize daylight. So waking up before dawn - once upon a time - was not such an exceptionally hard -or at least unusual - thing to do.



QUOTE (melech @ Mar 5 2008, 08:48 AM) *
Right, that's true. If I remember, I'll scan something from Minhag Torah Yisrael which is a limud zechut for ignoring the injunction to awaken early.


Here, Pinchas, this is saying basically what you were arguing:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...ent=OC10001.jpg
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