What calques from which languages can you add to this list?
I've got:
עיתון (Ger. Zeitung)
כוכב ([movie] star)
מבריק (brilliant [idea])
מבצע (Germ. aktion)
ירח דבש (honeymoon)
גן ילדים (kindergarten)
תפוח אדמה (Fr. pomme de terre)
כדורגל (football [soccer])
Full Version: Let's play the Hebrew Calque game
אופניים
מה נשמע
מה נשמע
מכונית -At least in Russian, a car is "machine."
מין-sex
כדורסל
כדור בסיס
כתב עת
כדור בסיס
כתב עת
سلام=שלום(salaam) (as opposed to שלום עליכם)
הכל בסדר=Alles in Ordnung
להתראות=Aufwiedersehen
בית חולים=Krankenhaus
רופא שיניים= Zahnarzt
פשות=Einfach (used as an interjection)
מסילת ברזל=Eisenbahn
מיקרו–גל=microwave
פיסגה=summit (as in diplomatic meeting)
ספינת חלל=spaceship
הכל בסדר=Alles in Ordnung
להתראות=Aufwiedersehen
בית חולים=Krankenhaus
רופא שיניים= Zahnarzt
פשות=Einfach (used as an interjection)
מסילת ברזל=Eisenbahn
מיקרו–גל=microwave
פיסגה=summit (as in diplomatic meeting)
ספינת חלל=spaceship
A lot of these things shouldn't count because they are literally the description of the thing in question....
What else should they call a rofei shanayim????
What else should they call a rofei shanayim????
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 4 2008, 06:37 PM) 
A lot of these things shouldn't count because they are literally the description of the thing in question....
What else should they call a rofei shanayim????
What else should they call a rofei shanayim????
Why don't they call a dentist a "tooth doctor" or a railroad an "iron road" in English?
And, there are some pretty idiosyncratic names for other things in Hebrew, like בית מרקחת, מסיבת עיתונאים, בית ספר, etc.
ETA: I missed a big idiosyncratic name: תפוח זהב
and another big calque: כסף=argent (meaning money)
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 4 2008, 07:29 PM)
מיקרו–גל=microwave
This is not a real calque.
What do we think of דואר אלקטרוני?
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 5 2008, 02:43 AM)
Why don't they call a dentist a "tooth doctor" or a railroad an "iron road" in English?
And, there are some pretty idiosyncratic names for other things in Hebrew, like בית מרקחת, מסיבת עיתונאים, בית ספר, etc.
And, there are some pretty idiosyncratic names for other things in Hebrew, like בית מרקחת, מסיבת עיתונאים, בית ספר, etc.
Not every language is the same. Bicycle for example, in English DOES describe what it is...
And I think there is a BIG difference between Beit Sefer and Mesibat Itonayim.....
Why is Beit Sefer that much different from Beit Midrash, Beit Knesset, Beit Kevorot etc.... That is how things are called in Hebrew.....
And also a lot of these words are NEW things that didn't exist back then, so it is no surprise that much of the loshon is "borrowed" from other languages.....
A calque is a loanword which is translated (or all of its roots are translated) into the borrowing language. We know most of these terms are calques because they are late additions to (written/spoken) Hebrews that showed up after contact with other languages that use this words.
גורד שחקים
אנוכיות
חלקיק
תת אנושי
אנוכיות
חלקיק
תת אנושי
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 4 2008, 07:29 PM)
להתראות=Aufwiedersehen
'Auf Wiedersehen' is two words.QUOTE
פשות=Einfach (used as an interjection)
What the hell is this?
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 4 2008, 06:55 PM)
Not every language is the same. Bicycle for example, in English DOES describe what it is...
And I think there is a BIG difference between Beit Sefer and Mesibat Itonayim.....
Why is Beit Sefer that much different from Beit Midrash, Beit Knesset, Beit Kevorot etc.... That is how things are called in Hebrew.....
And also a lot of these words are NEW things that didn't exist back then, so it is no surprise that much of the loshon is "borrowed" from other languages.....
When a new concept appears there are 3 options:And I think there is a BIG difference between Beit Sefer and Mesibat Itonayim.....
Why is Beit Sefer that much different from Beit Midrash, Beit Knesset, Beit Kevorot etc.... That is how things are called in Hebrew.....
And also a lot of these words are NEW things that didn't exist back then, so it is no surprise that much of the loshon is "borrowed" from other languages.....
borrow the word from another language: דמוקרטיה, אותובוס, מוזיקה, רדיו
translate the expression literally (calque, like above)
create a new word with the existing elements in the language
what is interesting is that in certain cases Hebrew's expressions make it seem like a word by word translation from German... and in other cases there are some idiosyncratic names for things that have the same name or calque in most other language, like מלון, מונית, התנחלות, חשמל, etc.
QUOTE (err @ Mar 5 2008, 02:58 AM)
A calque is a loanword which is translated (or all of its roots are translated) into the borrowing language. We know most of these terms are calques because they are late additions to (written/spoken) Hebrews that showed up after contact with other languages that use this words.
My point is that certain things are so basic that they shouldn't be considered calques...
That's not a very good point, the criteria are independent of basicness...............................................................
QUOTE (err @ Mar 5 2008, 03:06 AM)
That's not a very good point, the criteria are independent of basicness...............................................................
I disagree, I don't think "Beit Sefer" or "Beit Cholim" are calques, while "Gan Yeledim" and "Mesibat Itonayim" certainly are....
QUOTE (err @ Mar 4 2008, 06:52 PM)
This is not a real calque.
why not?microwave ovens are not called "micro wave" in all languages. In Japanese it's called 電子レンジ (denshi renji) meaning "electric range" (which is short for 電磁波レンジ (denjiha renji) meaning "electromagnetic wave range")
No one said בית ספר was a calque. I don't know about בית חולים, but one has to look at when it first came into usage and what contact languages were around at that time. It certainly doesn't come from 'hospital'. Whether or not something is "obvious" or "basic" is irrelevant.
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 4 2008, 08:17 PM)
why not?
Ideally all the roots should be translated, e.g. television >> Fernseher, it's more suspect if there are affixes from classical languages in there.QUOTE
microwave ovens are not called "micro wave" in all languages.
So what?
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 4 2008, 07:10 PM)
"Mesibat Itonayim" certainly are....
Mesibat itonaim is not a calque. If it were a calque it would be kenes dfus. No other language that I know of calls a press conference a "journalists' party"
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 4 2008, 08:02 PM)
When a new concept appears there are 3 options:
borrow the word from another language: דמוקרטיה, אותובוס, מוזיקה, רדיו
translate the expression literally (calque, like above)
create a new word with the existing elements in the language
what is interesting is that in certain cases Hebrew's expressions make it seem like a word by word translation from German... and in other cases there are some idiosyncratic names for things that have the same name or calque in most other language, like מלון, מונית, התנחלות, חשמל, etc.
borrow the word from another language: דמוקרטיה, אותובוס, מוזיקה, רדיו
translate the expression literally (calque, like above)
create a new word with the existing elements in the language
what is interesting is that in certain cases Hebrew's expressions make it seem like a word by word translation from German... and in other cases there are some idiosyncratic names for things that have the same name or calque in most other language, like מלון, מונית, התנחלות, חשמל, etc.
חשמל! I forgot that...it's also a calque.
מלון is real Hebrew; there was no need to calque.
מונית is a pun based on מכונית andלמנות
התנחל, like מלון, is an indigenous Hebrew word.
Also, I'm unaware of any Hebrew loanword which uses a ת for "t." It's אוטובוס.
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 4 2008, 08:12 PM)
I'm unaware of any Hebrew loanword which uses a ת for "t." It's אוטובוס.
QUOTE (err @ Mar 4 2008, 07:01 PM)
'Auf Wiedersehen' is two words.
My bad. 
ETA: Oh, another one:
אנטישמיות=anti-semitism
transliterated words like micro or anti cannot be calques.
How is chashmal a calque?
How is chashmal a calque?
QUOTE (Jeanette @ Mar 4 2008, 10:21 PM)
transliterated words like micro or anti cannot be calques.
I thought that if you have a previously incorporated loaned prefix like anti- or micro-, and combine it with a literal translation of the rest of the word it would be a calque. So perhaps I'm mistaken...QUOTE
How is chashmal a calque?
It certainly isETA: I just read online that איכות and כמות are medieval calques from the Arabic kayfiyya and kamiyya, respectively...
The word electricity comes from the word electrum, which appears as the Greek (and English) translation of the word חשמל in Yechezkel 1:4.
המילה חשמל מופיעה שלוש פעמים בתנ"ך, וכולן בספר יחזקאל בהקשר לגילויו של האלוהים, ביחד עם מראה של אש ואור.
* "וָאֵרֶא, וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן הַצָּפוֹן, עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַהּ לוֹ סָבִיב, וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵשׁ". (יחזקאל פרק א', פסוק ד')
* "וָאֵרֶא כְּעֵין חַשְׁמַל כְּמַרְאֵה־אֵשׁ בֵּית־לָהּ סָבִיב, מִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמָעְלָה, וּמִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמַטָּה, רָאִיתִי כְּמַרְאֵה־אֵשׁ וְנֹגַהּ לוֹ סָבִיב". (שם א', כ"ז)
* "וָאֶרְאֶה וְהִנֵּה דְמוּת כְּמַרְאֵה אֵשׁ מִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמַטָּה אֵשׁ, וּמִמָּתְנָיו וּלְמַעְלָה כְּמַרְאֵה זֹהַר כְּעֵין הַחַשְׁמַלָה". (שם ח', ב')
בלעז נקרא החשמל "אלקטריות" [עלעקטריסיטי], מהמלה היוונית "אלקטרון" - ענבר. מקור הקשר הוא בתופעת טעינתו של ענבר במטען חשמלי (סטטי) בעת שפשופו. בתרגום השבעים תורגמה המלה "חשמל" למלה היוונית "אלקטרון". אף שמילה זו מייצגת ככל הנראה משמעות שונה בהקשר המקראי הנידון (גם תערובת של זהב ומתכות אחרות נקראת "אלקטרון"), בכל זאת השתמשו מחדשי השפה העברית במילה המתורגמת-בחזרה.
Compare:
The Hebraicists simply used the word חשמל to mean what its Greek equivalent, electrum, had come to mean.
It certainly is.
QUOTE
המילה חשמל מופיעה שלוש פעמים בתנ"ך, וכולן בספר יחזקאל בהקשר לגילויו של האלוהים, ביחד עם מראה של אש ואור.
* "וָאֵרֶא, וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן הַצָּפוֹן, עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַהּ לוֹ סָבִיב, וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵשׁ". (יחזקאל פרק א', פסוק ד')
* "וָאֵרֶא כְּעֵין חַשְׁמַל כְּמַרְאֵה־אֵשׁ בֵּית־לָהּ סָבִיב, מִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמָעְלָה, וּמִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמַטָּה, רָאִיתִי כְּמַרְאֵה־אֵשׁ וְנֹגַהּ לוֹ סָבִיב". (שם א', כ"ז)
* "וָאֶרְאֶה וְהִנֵּה דְמוּת כְּמַרְאֵה אֵשׁ מִמַּרְאֵה מָתְנָיו וּלְמַטָּה אֵשׁ, וּמִמָּתְנָיו וּלְמַעְלָה כְּמַרְאֵה זֹהַר כְּעֵין הַחַשְׁמַלָה". (שם ח', ב')
בלעז נקרא החשמל "אלקטריות" [עלעקטריסיטי], מהמלה היוונית "אלקטרון" - ענבר. מקור הקשר הוא בתופעת טעינתו של ענבר במטען חשמלי (סטטי) בעת שפשופו. בתרגום השבעים תורגמה המלה "חשמל" למלה היוונית "אלקטרון". אף שמילה זו מייצגת ככל הנראה משמעות שונה בהקשר המקראי הנידון (גם תערובת של זהב ומתכות אחרות נקראת "אלקטרון"), בכל זאת השתמשו מחדשי השפה העברית במילה המתורגמת-בחזרה.
Compare:
QUOTE
Electrum is referred to three times in the Bible. In all three instances it is used to describe a type of glow seen by the prophet Ezekiel in visions (Ezekiel Ch.1 Vs.4 and 27;Ch. 8 Vs. 2)
The Hebraicists simply used the word חשמל to mean what its Greek equivalent, electrum, had come to mean.
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Mar 4 2008, 11:55 PM)
It certainly isn't
It certainly is.
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 4 2008, 11:04 PM)
The word electricity comes from the word electrum, which appears as the Greek (and English) translation of the word חשמל in Yechezkel 1:4.
Compare:
The Hebraicists simply used the word חשמל to mean what its Greek equivalent, electrum, had come to mean.
It certainly is.
It is a calque. Sorry. My mistake. Compare:
The Hebraicists simply used the word חשמל to mean what its Greek equivalent, electrum, had come to mean.
It certainly is.
Is there a list of ibn Tibbonisms out there? I've learnt Chovos HaLevavos a few times so I have an idea of what some may be, but a list would be really handy.
I actually just read somewhere that Shmuel ibn Tibbon put a list of his coinages in the back of the ספר מ"נ. May be worth looking into as a start.
BTW, does anyone else see the silliness of calquing from German, which is a language that encourages compound words, to Hebrew, which as a language hates them?
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 5 2008, 12:16 AM)
BTW, does anyone else see the silliness of calquing from German, which is a language that encourages compound words, to Hebrew, which as a language hates them?
Yiddish and Russian have a lot of compounding, too. The founders of MIH simply had an internal lexicon made up of those languages, so it's natural that that would be the source for much of their inspiration.QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 5 2008, 12:12 AM)
I actually just read somewhere that Shmuel ibn Tibbon put a list of his coinages in the back of the ספר מ"נ. May be worth looking into as a start.
tanks
QUOTE (err @ Mar 5 2008, 12:24 AM)
Yiddish and Russian have a lot of compounding, too. The founders of MIH simply had an internal lexicon made up of those languages, so it's natural that that would be the source for much of their inspiration.
I'm not dissing the Hebraicists. I'm just making an observation. "Kindergarten" may mean גן ילדים, but the former is one word and the latter is two. That's why, in my experience, while people in Europe or America still send their kids to "kindergarten," little Israelis now go to "גן"
Well, Hebrew still has noun compounds, it's just an orthographic convention to write them as two words. It's like how people refer to the rosh yeshiva as "the rosh", or in English calling the bookshelf just a shelf.
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