[This is an example of a thread that, TMHO, doesn't belong anywhere. Poor thread.]

I came across something a teacher had taught my 10th grade class, namely, that l'haches includes not caring about doing a sin (which believing in God, etc.).
While it is true that not caring is one of the sorriest states of humankind, is it true that it falls under l'haches?

The literal meaning of l'haches is "to anger". So in that sense, when you don't care you're not really out to get anyone mad, you're just in a sorry state of not caring enough about yourself to care about another or even HKB"H.

True, which is why I don't understand it. OTOH, it seems closer to that than do a meizid, because the person is not necessarily doing something that he wants. Let's say he has an equally delicious non-kosher burger and kosher burger in front of him. By choosing either at random, he's basically saying, screw you God, not because he wants the non-kosher burger.

Your teacher was a meizid for not getting her facts straight. The poor guy eating the cheeseburger is most likely not a yodea es Boro umchaven limrod bo so he's either a shogeg or better yet a shoiteh.

I don't understand why that's a shogeg.

Technicaly you're right, that's not a shogeg. IMHO such a person is mentally unstable and will not be held to account for that sin.

I see. And disagree.

Why do you disagree?

I don't see why this is inappropriate for Jewish Fundamentalists...


You mean like eating Cholov Akum when CY is readily available???

But no, I don't think that counts as l'hachis at all. L'hachis is DAVKA going against G-d simply for the sake of rebelling. Apathy is bad, but it is not l'hachis....

I can see how someone would become so used to doing a certain sin that after a while s/he'd stop caring, and don't see why that's a result of a mental or emotional disorder.


It's fundamental? Or fundamentalist?


Possibly.


So what is it?

I'd say that there's no such thing as someone not caring, and being neither leteavon nor lehachis. Your specific example doesn't exist in reality. All other things being equal, the non-kosher burger is going to be better tasting and less expensive than the kosher one. And it's not just your example. If someone buy food without checking if it has a hashgachah, it's leteavon since it's saving them the trouble of having to look for hashgachos, and gives them the possibility to choose the food on price, taste and health considerations only, without having to compromise for kashrus. Sometimes a statement sounds good as a slogan, but proves to be a fallacy when you try to ground it into reality. This is a prime example.

Perhaps. I see what you're saying and it's true, to an extent. Most people do do thing leteavon or lehachis. However, someone who at cheeseburgers for a while leteavon and then was offered (for free) a kosher 'cheeseburger' of equal quality and taste, could theoretically just have stopped caring (and just choose either) even once there is no issue of one being better / cheaper / healthier / easier to get.

Thing is, in reality, no two things are equal. You can't have a kosher 'cheeseburger' of equal taste than a non-kosher cheeseburger, it's hard enough to have 2 different non-kosher cheeseburgers of equal taste...

Besides, the idea of not having to be on the defensive is in an of itself an advantage. Isn't it more comfortable to shop at a kosher market where you can just grab what you want without having to check the kashrus?

My bad. I understood 'not caring' to mean like when you're pissed off and you don't care.

Sometimes two options are effectively so similar. In the cheeseburger case, there was a reason why there were those 'theoretically's.

I don't understand the second part.

I don't understand why whether or not the example is called shogeg has anything to do with whether or not it is called l'hachis.
L'hachis and l'teyavon are parameters in deciding what kind of mumar someone (who is in fact a mumar) is, which has halachic ramifications.

Shogeg and Meizid are measures of intentionality which effect the punishment one receives, both bidei adom and bidei shomayim.

They are seperate issues, as far as I know.

As far as krumlikeapretzel's point, I would say that it applies to not only saving time not looking for a hashgacha, but to caring itself. If I am faced with equal options, the ability to pick randomly is something I would like. If you say the case is where on does not care if one can pick randomly or not, then why did he pick the not kosher one? He in fact did not pick, so asking whether the choice was made l'tayovon or l'hachis is moot.