In show of modesty, Haredi women make up in private
By Tamar Rotem, Haaretz Correspondent


In Bnei Brak there is a woman who wears too much makeup. Bright red lipstick that can be seen from a distance, eyes emphasized with dark eye shadow. For years they've been gossiping about her as she walks down the street.

Her husband, on the other hand, is a disheveled type who boasts of the stringent prohibitions he takes upon himself in terms of sexual modesty. How does that work? The husband usually takes off his eyeglasses when he leaves the house, so that he won't slip up and, God forbid, look at women. So his wife paints herself without interference, and he doesn't notice.

This story is an extreme example of the paradox involved in the desire of ultra-Orthodox women to meet the norms of beauty in secular society, in spite of the instructions to practice tzniut (modesty) that are practiced in their society.

"It's true that 'Charm is deceptive and beauty is vain' takes precedence in this society. But in reality, there is no limit to the investment of ultra-Orthodox women in their appearance," says Yaffa Larrie, the owner of a Jerusalem beauty salon. "You have to remember that they are 'ordinary' women, with needs. But they have restrictions, and therefore everything with them is hinted, not emphasized."

Alongside home beauty salons, whose existence is passed along by word of mouth, in recent years many beauty salons have opened in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods, where they specialize in improving the "natural look." They offer all of the treatments available on the market - anti-wrinkle treatments, permanent makeup, injections that fill out one's face - "everything goes," says Larrie.

Secret exits to maintain privacy

The Ye'elat Chen beauty salon, managed by Larrie, has been operating for 24 years in Jerusalem, not far from Mea Shearim and Kikar Shabbat. The side entrance on the main street is suited to women who want to steal in without being seen. Behind the simple door a surprise awaits. A pleasant and aesthetic space divided into cubicles. Several rooms have a secret exit to the salon's backyard. They are meant for the wives of leading Hasidic rabbis, women from extremist Hasidic sects, along with several female MKs who have heard about Larrie. In other words, all those who have to maintain their privacy.

There is nobody more expert than Larrie when it comes to social sensitivities. "Sometimes a mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law come to us, or a sister and her sister-in-law," says Larrie. "Neither of them knows that the other is being treated at the same time. It's not legitimate to talk about it. We understand that the name of the game is discretion."

Larrie is the "Ronit Raphael" (owner of a chain of medical-cosmetic clinics) of the ultra-Orthodox public. She is a religious woman who wears a wig, who brings the latest innovations in the field to ultra-Orthodox women. When she finished a cosmetics course she consulted with a Jerusalem kabbalist, and he advised her to offer her services to the ultra-Orthodox public.

"I was shocked," she says. "I knew that this was a public without much money, that it's not acceptable. At the time even the word 'cosmetics' could not be published in the newspaper. I didn't know what was permitted and what was forbidden." But she did as the kabbalist said. And slowly but surely women began to come. Over time she learned to distinguish among the various streams and Hasidic sects, knowing who were more open and those who were less so. She knows the limitations of each woman. This one will absolutely refuse to remove her head covering, others are not permitted to open a single button in their blouse.

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#402

I don't get it, so charedi women also go to beautitions -what's all the fuss?

why are some women afraid or embarassed to be seen entering that salon?

Why wouldn't they unbutton a button? How's it different than going to a dr ?

There a difference between exposing oneself for a legitimate medical necessity, even if just for diagnostic purposes, and exposing oneself for non-medical needs unnecessarily.

I thought the title was implying that women can't make up (as in after a fight) in public. That makes sense because guys might get turned on if they see the women hugging each other.

and i thought in whatever areas they are modest in public, they make up for it in private...

but can someone please explain to me why they are embarassed to be seen going to this salon? why the side door and exists from each room into the backyard?

me too

And I thought it said "make out."

H.com thread titles as a Rorschach test

Do chareidim who have perfect vision buy glasses so their vision will be distorted when they walk the streets? Or is it only the ones with glasses take them off?

Maybe it's as the author somewhat implied it - they are embarrassed to be taking money (from the government or tzedakah since they are poor) and going to a beauty salon.

I might be wrong, but I believe this article is a gross exaggeration.

oh. maybe.



it would be in the US, but in israel... you never know...

How's that work, exactly?

for post-menopausal women? (i wonder what make up could be permanent, besides tinted eyelashes - permanent blush? eyeshadow? lipstick? oh, i think i rememebr hearing about permanent eye-liner...)

why wouldn't it violate the prohibition against tattooing?

why is that tattooing?

Because not many women want to admit to having a nip and tuck. I don't think modesty has anything to do with it.

Well, I'm not really sure what "permanent makeup" is, but I assume it's like tattooing eyeliner or something like that - you're permanently adding pigment. isn't that tattooing?

do these salons do plastic/correction surgeries? what's a nip and tuck?



i don't know how halacha views it (there IS an advantage of uneducation sometimes ), but, to me, it's different.

Theyre tattooing the makeup on. Apparently (according to krebby's link) poskim want to avoid telling women they cant do something they know theyll do anyways.

Like cellphones, Internet, DVDs, MP3 players.... ???

Which poskim avoid the subject? I've heard a couple mention that they're tattoos and therefore assur.

what do you mean by "tattooing the make up on" - it's the same procedure with the same type of tools, with the end result being black eyeliners instead of a flower around the bellybutton?

what other permanent makeup besides eyeliners is there?

It's not the same as a tatoo. It lasts only a couple months. I think the standard is eyeliner and lipliner. And I know some women who have gotten an okay to tovel with it.

1. How is it applied?

2. If it's not permanent, why is it okay to tovel with?

ETA:

1. I'm not sure. Maybe wiki knows...
2. I also don't know, but I can imagine that her wanting it to be there and the fact that it's fully on has what to do with it. I just saw in a sefer that regular makeup isn't such a clear-cut chatzitza either.

Per wiki:


Permanent makeup is a cosmetic technique which employs tattoos (permanent pigmentation of the dermis) as a means of producing designs that resemble makeup, such as eyelining and other permanent enhancing colors to the skin of the face, lips and eyelids. It is also used to produce artificial eyebrows, particularly in people who have lost it as a consequence of old age, disease, such as alopecia, chemotherapy or a genetic disturbance, and to disguise scars and white spots in the skin such as in vitiligo. It is also used to restore or enhance the breast's areola, such as after breast surgery.




My mother had this done 7 years ago...its still there (albeit a bit faded).

I stand corrected.

(maybe there are different types..?)

Maybe because if you davka want something to be present, it's not a clear cut chatzitzah.


Maybe there are different types of "permanent makeup" and maybe some methods aren't tattooing?
/speculative guess

I think women who have radiation get permant tatoos.

I looked into this because (except for the pain aspect; I hear it is extremely painful and you have to keep very still) I would have liked permanent eyeliner. It doesn't last a few months, but mostly about 3 yrs. Which makes it semi permanent makeup; and therein lies the machlokes whether it is a tattoo or not. My posek (Dayan Ehrentreu) says it is tattooing and quoted me acres of other poskim who say the same. I think the women who have it done anyways, don't bother asking a shaylah about it.

However on the topic of tznius and beauty parlors, rubbish! My beautician is also a frum woman with a sheitel. Women come and go from her salon, often meeting each other on the way in or out. I'm quite happy that my daughter knows I go to the same one she goes to and vice versa.

Tattoos also fade if exposed regularly to sun. I assume this is probably the case with "permanent makeup".

Just one?

I don't know how it is possible to toivel with a "well maintained manicure." One of the prerequisites for toiveling is to give your self a manicure... but you have to take off the nailpolish, no matter how pretty. If someone could explain how it could be possible to keep your polish on, that would be great. I'd never have to worry about when I want to get a pedicure.

i heard that sometimes women are given ok to toivel with fake nails, so maybe that's what's meant by "well maintained manicure"

I've aslo heard of women being given an okay to tovel with thier nails done. If they are all polished and underneath the nail are clean, its not such a clear-cut chatzitza either.

There are separate issues here. Cutting your nails is minhag and not halachah - long [natural] nails in and of themselves aren't exactly a chatzitzah. Look at YD 198:18 where the Mechaber writes "nahagu ha-nashim" = it's a minhag, not halachah.
As for nail polish, the rule of thumb is that something you davka want on isn't a chatzitzah. ArtScroll, the final arbiter of all things Jewish, says this in The Laws of Niddah p. 290:







As always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

IIRC, that "heter" is for women who otherwise would not toivel.

or on shabbos if she forgot

As always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

Melech, I never heard that she can toivel if she forgot to take care of her nails. The din is that she cannot toivel if she even forgot to cut one nail.

There are three separate issues here: Cutting nails, removing nail polish, and removing fake nails.
I'm not sure which of those you're referring to, or all three. Regardless, she is supposed to. The question is what happens if she didn't or won't. Again, for example, a woman shows up Friday night and she forgot to cut one nail. I have no idea what the mikvah lady or rabbi would rule, but it's arguably minhag and not halachah. Whether the accepted minhag trumps the requirement to be tovelet bizman in the absence of an available nonJew to take care of the nails is another question.


The accepted minhag that is normative practice.

Here is the Shulchan Aruch:
ובצק שתחת הצפורן, אפילו כנגד הבשר חוצץ. ואיזהו שלא כנגד הבשר, זה שהצפורן עודף על הבשר. ולפי שאינן יכולות לכוין מה נקרא כנגד הבשר או שלא כנגדו, נהגו הנשים ליטול צפרניהם בשעת טבילה.

The nail itself is not a chatzitzah. The problem is that it's difficult to be sure you have removed any real chatzitzah so the accepted minhag is to cut one's nails.


As always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

IIRC, my cowokers told me that at the Satmar mikvah they have a non Jewish woman there to cut nails/hangnails if necessary. I could be wrong, however.

It's b'feirush in the English dinim books that you MUST cut your nails before Shabbos/yomtov otherwise no tevilah can take place.
I would say that it's halachah.

Gfabid I - or any Jewish woman- should show up Friday night not properly prepared !!!!

That's nice, but not every mikvah has a nonJew on standby.


You can say anything you want.


Lo aleinu.


As always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

I don’t consider myself ignorant. I’m married over 20 years and have learned the dinim countless time.

I'm not suggesting any such thing, chas ve-shalom, and I apologize for giving cause to believe otherwise.

Look, you're supposed to cut your nails and take off nail polish and remove false nails before tevilah. No disagreement there. That's minhag and normative practice, at the very least.

The very limited area of disagreement between us [as far as I understand it] is whether a person can ever be allowed to be tovelet if she forgot to cut a nail [eg. on shabbat]. As I said above: "she is supposed to. The question is what happens if she didn't or won't. " I also said, "I have no idea what the mikvah lady or rabbi would rule".

I also think that cutting nails is a minhag and not halachah [the Shulchan Aruch says "nahagu" - see post #45 above], although that's a more theoretical issue than a practical issue. Except insofar as what may occur in the case of a person who forgot or won't.

There is likely little practical difference between your understanding and my understanding of the issue. Read what I quoted from the ArtScroll book in post #41 above. Is there anything in those quotes you disagree with?

As always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

The mikvah lady better not rule anything if I'm around.