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Pinchas
Is it popular in Japan? I just read a news story about it in the U.S. where they do 男体盛り also.

It sounds disgusting!
shaya_getzl
Compare that with Ikizukuri and Shiokara ...
Bezalel99
QUOTE (shaya_getzl @ Mar 10 2008, 02:51 PM) *
Ikizukuri


Eating live fish! That's horrendous.

Does ever min hachai apply to fish? I know we don't have to shecht fish, and I think it's because they are considered dead upon being removed from water. But obviously that's not true, as they can live awhile in air.

Is a Jew obliged to kill a fish quickly rather than letting it gasp to death?
shaya_getzl
QUOTE (Bezalel99 @ Mar 10 2008, 02:50 PM) *
Eating live fish! That's horrendous.

Does ever min hachai apply to fish? I know we don't have to shecht fish, and I think it's because they are considered dead upon being removed from water. But obviously that's not true, as they can live awhile in air.

Is a Jew obliged to kill a fish quickly rather than letting it gasp to death?


I think that's a non-trivial shaalah. Is a Jew obligated to kill a lobster, or at least give it a morphine shot, before boiling it ?
grend123
There's a machloket in Chullin, based on a passuk, as to whether fish need shechita. One shitta holds that they do, but removing them from water (halachically referred to as "asifa," or gathering) is considered shechita for a fish. The other shitta is that fish simply don't need shechita. The reason given in the Gemara for this second opinion is that fish can't survive long on land, and so they do not require a regular shechita because they have a "weaker" life force to begin with. Birds, which are "stronger" than fish but "weaker" than animals need a simpler shechita of 1 siman instead of 2.

Once you do shechita on an animal, there is no issur of ever min hachai, even if the animal has not died yet. So if asifa is a form of shechita, then there is no ever min hachai on a fish that has been removed from water. However, if asifa is not shechita then the question remains, and even if it is shechita, there's still the question of whether it's assur to eat a live fish under water (without asifa). There's also a question of whether one can eat a fish that died in the water, since it never had asifa.

I learned this sugya two years ago, and my recollection is that we pasken that there is no issue of ever min hachai on fish anyways, so according to either shitta it's not a violation. However, the rishonim say that eating a live fish is a violation of bal t'shaksu (the issur of being disgusting). I asked R' Bleich about whether this was cultural or absolute - in a culture where eating live fish was a delicacy, would this still be assur (I was not aware of any such culture, but it didn't seem so farfetched). I recall that he didn't think the answer was obvious and that it would require research.

My recollection is also that we do allow you to eat a fish that died in the water, which would imply that we pasken that asifa is not a form of shechita.

As to letting the fish die or killing it quickly, the gemara discussing asifa makes no mention of any need to kill it quickly. I don't know if this is because there is no tza'ar baalei chaim for fish (which is what I suspect) or whether this is simply not considered a major tzaar compared to clubbing it to death or something. A nafka mina would be whether one is allowed to cook a live fish in boiling water as they do to lobsters (again, assuming they don't need asifa, since otherwise this is assur for that reason).

So, in summary, no issur of ever min hachai according to the way we pasken, but possibly bal t'shaksu. I would say in the USA, where this would be considered the sort of gross thing that would be shown on "Fear Factor," that it is definitely bal t'shaksu, but AYLOR.
Bezalel99
Thank you, Grend, that's very interesting.

Perhaps my question should have been in Halacha, but since this thread made me think of the issue, I raised it here.
shaya_getzl
Zohar compares Ba'alei Mishna to fishes and locusts, who don't need shechitah.
grend123
Fish definitely don't need shechita; the question is whether they need asifa instead, or if they need nothing. The sugya is Chullin 27b, but I don't have time to look it up now - please someone go ahead and get the details right.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE (grend123 @ Mar 10 2008, 11:44 PM) *
Fish definitely don't need shechita; the question is whether they need asifa instead, or if they need nothing. The sugya is Chullin 27b, but I don't have time to look it up now - please someone go ahead and get the details right.

What's the nafka mina? Eating it under water???
grend123
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 10 2008, 04:45 PM) *
What's the nafka mina? Eating it under water???


I listed a few above; the simplest one is whether one can eat a fish that died in the water, since it never underwent asifa.
Pinchas
Okay...the thread was not about the food but about the platter...
Enforcer
QUOTE (Pinchas @ Mar 10 2008, 05:56 PM) *
Okay...the thread was not about the food but about the platter...

And that deems it to be placed in the "Entertainment" section?
krumlikeapretzel
QUOTE (Pinchas @ Mar 10 2008, 09:20 AM) *
Is it popular in Japan?
I don't think it's exactly popular, but it exists.
QUOTE
I just read a news story about it in the U.S. where they do 男体盛り also.
They do Dantaimori in Japan too, but neither is a huge trend. Mostly these are curiosities for people who are so rich and so over-sexed and bored, that they'd go to that kind of extreme to try to extinguish the ennui...

QUOTE
Eating live fish! That's horrendous.
Actually fish  that have been killed less than say an hour or so before gives them a completely different (and definitely better) flavor. I'd describe it as mildy sweet with no fishy flavor at all. Ikizukuri is the 
freshest possible fish, meaning that they killed it as they prepared it for you.
 
krumlikeapretzel
QUOTE (Bezalel99 @ Mar 10 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Eating live fish! That's horrendous.

Does ever min hachai apply to fish? I know we don't have to shecht fish, and I think it's because they are considered dead upon being removed from water. But obviously that's not true, as they can live awhile in air.

Is a Jew obliged to kill a fish quickly rather than letting it gasp to death?

Being that cows and chicken that are shechted don't die quickly at all I seriously doubt it.
International
QUOTE (grend123 @ Mar 10 2008, 05:01 PM) *
There's a machloket in Chullin, based on a passuk, as to whether fish need shechita. One shitta holds that they do, but removing them from water (halachically referred to as "asifa," or gathering) is considered shechita for a fish. The other shitta is that fish simply don't need shechita. The reason given in the Gemara for this second opinion is that fish can't survive long on land, and so they do not require a regular shechita because they have a "weaker" life force to begin with. Birds, which are "stronger" than fish but "weaker" than animals need a simpler shechita of 1 siman instead of 2.

Once you do shechita on an animal, there is no issur of ever min hachai, even if the animal has not died yet. So if asifa is a form of shechita, then there is no ever min hachai on a fish that has been removed from water. However, if asifa is not shechita then the question remains, and even if it is shechita, there's still the question of whether it's assur to eat a live fish under water (without asifa). There's also a question of whether one can eat a fish that died in the water, since it never had asifa.

I learned this sugya two years ago, and my recollection is that we pasken that there is no issue of ever min hachai on fish anyways, so according to either shitta it's not a violation. However, the rishonim say that eating a live fish is a violation of bal t'shaksu (the issur of being disgusting). I asked R' Bleich about whether this was cultural or absolute - in a culture where eating live fish was a delicacy, would this still be assur (I was not aware of any such culture, but it didn't seem so farfetched). I recall that he didn't think the answer was obvious and that it would require research.

My recollection is also that we do allow you to eat a fish that died in the water, which would imply that we pasken that asifa is not a form of shechita.

As to letting the fish die or killing it quickly, the gemara discussing asifa makes no mention of any need to kill it quickly. I don't know if this is because there is no tza'ar baalei chaim for fish (which is what I suspect) or whether this is simply not considered a major tzaar compared to clubbing it to death or something. A nafka mina would be whether one is allowed to cook a live fish in boiling water as they do to lobsters (again, assuming they don't need asifa, since otherwise this is assur for that reason).

So, in summary, no issur of ever min hachai according to the way we pasken, but possibly bal t'shaksu. I would say in the USA, where this would be considered the sort of gross thing that would be shown on "Fear Factor," that it is definitely bal t'shaksu, but AYLOR.

Wow, thank you. I havnt seen this mentioned in any recent sefarim like Simla Chadasha. or even Yorei Deah
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