Full Version: Tur OC 8
If ideally we are supposed to have two in front and two behind, how do those who gather all four in front for shema justify the practice?
They don't gather permanently, do they ?
And I think that proper Ashkenaz mesorah doesn't gather four but two in all cases, and same is perhaps for proper Sephardic mesorah as well (as opposed to the one derived from Shaarei Tzion and related works).
And I think that proper Ashkenaz mesorah doesn't gather four but two in all cases, and same is perhaps for proper Sephardic mesorah as well (as opposed to the one derived from Shaarei Tzion and related works).
QUOTE (shaya_getzl @ Mar 10 2008, 02:15 PM) 
They don't gather permanently, do they ?
No, but I would think when reading the parshah of tzitzit, that's when we should be most makpid to have the tzitzit arranged properly, not the least makpid.
QUOTE
And I think that proper Ashkenaz mesorah doesn't gather four but two in all cases, and same is perhaps for proper Sephardic mesorah as well (as opposed to the one derived from Shaarei Tzion and related works).
Yeah. [although I would quibble with the word, "proper"].
anyway, isn't gathering all four sourced in the Ar"i, if I recall correctly?
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 10 2008, 01:17 PM)
No, but I would think when reading the parshah of tzitzit, that's when we should be most makpid to have the tzitzit arranged properly, not the least makpid.
It does not make sense, true. But does wearing strangely looking fringes on the end of a clothing that has no practical purpose make any more sense ?
QUOTE
Yeah. [although I would quibble with the word, "proper"].
anyway, isn't gathering all four sourced in the Ar"i, if I recall correctly?
anyway, isn't gathering all four sourced in the Ar"i, if I recall correctly?
Shaarei Tzion is the source of many "Ar"i customs". I personally believe that Ar"i wasn't makpid on people imitating him in every detail, nor did he claim monopoly on the only true "mesorah", nor did he leave anything in writing and meant for GP that could be interpreted in that fashion.
I tend to side with the Hasidic luminaries who expressed their sadness about not being able to reinstate the true Minhag Ashkenaz (which is basically extinct today) because of the turn the history has taken.
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 10 2008, 02:17 PM)
anyway, isn't gathering all four sourced in the Ar"i, if I recall correctly?
QUOTE (shaya_getzl @ Mar 10 2008, 02:42 PM)
Shaarei Tzion is the source of many "Ar"i customs". I personally believe that Ar"i wasn't makpid on people imitating him in every detail, nor did he claim monopoly on the only true "mesorah", nor did he leave anything in writing and meant for GP that could be interpreted in that fashion.
Actually I think it comes from the Pri Eitz Chaim Shaar Krias Shema perek 3 (and in shaar hakovonos derush kriyas shem)
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Mar 10 2008, 04:32 PM)
Actually I think it comes from the Pri Eitz Chaim Shaar Krias Shema perek 3
Thank you. Here it is:
ובהגיעך אל מהר והבא עלינו וכו' מארבע כנפות הארץ, אז אותן הכנפות של הטלית המונחת בכתיפך תתירם אז, שיפלו הציצית למטה, וז"ס הנזכר בתיקונים דבעידן ק"ש, חיוון שמטן גדפייהו. בהגיעך אל מהר וכו', (ד) תשים ב' צדדי הטלית על כתפך, בסוד ויקחו להם שם ויפת את השמלה וישימו על שכם שניהם. והוא סוד מה שהודעתיך בענין כוונת הציצית, כי תחלה אינו לוקחת המלכות רק ב' ציצית, לכן ג"כ אנו לוקחין בב"ש ב' ציצית ביד הימין. אמנם עתה אנו צריכין להאיר אליה כל הד' ציצית. אמנם מי שהוא משורש קין והבל הם יותר צריכין לכוונה זו, ולשום אותה על הכתף, כי הלא קין והבל הם סוד שני הכתפים כנודע, וראוי לכוין בזה מי שהוא משרשם. ובאמרך מארבע כנפות הארץ, מי שהוא מבחינת קין יעלה הציצית על הכתפיים, אבל מי שהוא משורש הבל יפריד על זרועותיו, וראוי לכוין בזה. (ה):
http://www.hebrew.grimoar.cz/vital/pri_ec_chajim.htm
Is this kabalah trumping halachah?
QUOTE (melech @ Mar 10 2008, 05:42 PM)
Is this kabalah trumping halachah?
Is the holding all four in your hands by kriyas shema really trumping what it says to have two in the back and two in the front? I am not so sure.
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