Can you cook meat and fish uncovered in the same oven at the same time?

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halac...766/kisisa.html

What melech quoted from torah.org is what we were told by a rav.

Thanks melech and FYI, that's what I remembered but I wasn't 100% sure. (It came up in a conversation m.s.)

Keep in mind the usual assumed caveats: You need to ask your local orthodox rabbi what psak is appropriate for you in your situation if it's an issue of practical practice rather than musing about various possible opinions.

Paskening issur bedieved here seems, well, stretched ...

Look at Rema on YD 115:2 and Darkei Teshuva s"k 22, there are significant deios l'chumra on this.

I'm sure Pre Megudim and Chovas Da'as come to the rescue of my cholnt ...

The Chochmat Adam 68:1 [which is the footnoted source in the torah.org site] and the Ta'z on YD 116 s'k 2 [which the Darchei Teshuvah cites; I guess this isn't one of the examples where the Darchei Teshuvah is bringing unusual opinions] both point out that sakanta chamira me-issura and hence the stringency.

After all, the Darchei Moshe notes that the real sakanah is from davka cooking the food together so that's why there is added stringency with regard to bishul.

Again, as always, ask one's local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

It's Darkei Teshuva, and you should know more about the author before making pointless snide comments at others.

best post ever

You went digging through posts just for that? Darchei Moshe != Darkei Teshuva, I thought you were a history buff, or is it just gossip and digging up old controversies you enjoy?

Edited to add:
Shaya, I was thinking about this and maybe there is indeed a way to be lenient be-di'avad as you intuitively suggest. I don't know if this stands up to scrutiny and I would have to look at the sources again, but maybe:

The Ta'z and others are machmir be-di'avad with bishul. That's true. However, what if the Ta'z (and others) is speaking of a case of mamish cooking the meat and fish together, like in the same pot? In such a case, yes, chamira sakanta me-issura, and both would be forbidden even be-di'avad, even if let's say it's batel be-shishim or whatever. However, would that be the case were both to be cooked together in the same oven but in separate pots, where it's "only" the steam in the confined area that connects the two dishes? I don't know, but I'm not sure it's a slam dunk. I have to go back and look at it again from this different perspective.

But maybe that's why the torah.org site said you need to ask a rav - since maybe therefore there can be room for leniency depending on the particular circumstances, such as the size of the oven or whether the fish or meat are liquidy.

But I don't really know, it's just an idea, something I have to think about.

Again, as always, ask one's local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

Shaya, I spoke with my local orthodox rabbi this morning and we went over the Sha'ch briefly. Here is the Sha'ch:



What I understood the rav to say is that the issue here is the mingling of the steam, not that the foods are being cooked together in the same pot. What I understood the rav to say is that basically the Sha'ch is citing two opinions, the first that even le-chatchilah there's room to be lenient, and the second that even be-di'avad it's forbidden. What I understood the rav to say was that le-ma'aseh "we" are noheg that le-chatchilah we don't cook meat and fish at the same time uncovered in the oven because of steam issues like the second opinion in the Sha'ch, but be-di'avad there is room to be lenient like the first opinion in the Sha'ch.

Also, here is the Darchei Teshuvah:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...andmeat0001.jpg

I stand by my musings:



since the Darchei Teshuvah is seemingly citing authorities who may rule leniently in cases where the oven is big or the fish and meat aren't too liquidy, in opposition to the apparent ruling of the more stringent second opinion in the Sha'ch. In other words, even if one holds like the second and more stringent opinion in the Sha'ch that even be-dia'avad the fish and meat are assur, there can possibly be room for leniency depending on the particular circumstances.


Again, as always, ask one's own local orthodox rabbi and don't rely on the rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora.

Righty-o. It was a hypothetical discussion between two busy housewives about various ways to cook gefilte fish. In reality, since we both make our fish on Wed night and our chicken on Thurs night, it's not an issue.

However, as follow-up questions: Does the oven need to cool completely before using it to cook the other type of food? Just be empty but can still be hot? Wait 24 hours? Does it matter if you cook fish/meat first?



May I humbly suggest you save yourself time and just put this in your sig?

I was actually considering that but it's really only relevant in posts that discuss matters of ritual practice. While I have a lot of those, not all my posts require that disclaimer. I think for now I just have to copy and paste each time.

One could argue from this that while Sages did not abolish the danger-based halachic stringencies outright, they did very much recognize the difference between halachic and haggadic dangers and halachic vs. hashkafic methods of transfering flavor.