if someone is killed in a terrorist attack simply because they were jewish, was their death a kiddush hashem?
does it take specific action for a death to be a kiddush hashem or is being in the wrong place at the wrong time enough?
Full Version: Dying Al Kiddush Hashem
The origin of the appelation "kedoshim" as in"al kiddush hashem" was in the Jews killed (or who killed themselves and/ or each other) during the First Crusade. So it doesn't seem that it's a specific action at all.
It's NOT the wrong place at the wrong time. They were killed because they were Jews. It makes no difference if it is in a death camp or a blown up bus.....
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 11 2008, 04:49 PM) 
It's NOT the wrong place at the wrong time. They were killed because they were Jews. It makes no difference if it is in a death camp or a blown up bus.....
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
How is that mekadesh shem shomayim? If they died because they did not want to give up their religion specifically, it's one thing.
Someone told me that Akeida stands for "al kiddush Hashem", so whenever someone is niftar al kiddush Hashem, it can be called an Akeida.
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 11 2008, 04:49 PM)
It's NOT the wrong place at the wrong time. They were killed because they were Jews. It makes no difference if it is in a death camp or a blown up bus.....
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
Now if a Jew is randomly killed in a general terrorist attack, like 9-11 or a botched liquor store robbery it may be a question......
So if Mr. Goy tells Reb Yid, "Hah, I am going to kill you because you are a Jew," and the Jew says "No, don't kill me, I'll convert," and he converts and the Goy kills him anyway, is the Jew a "kadosh?"
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 12 2008, 01:50 AM)
So if Mr. Goy tells Reb Yid, "Hah, I am going to kill you because you are a Jew," and the Jew says "No, don't kill me, I'll convert," and he converts and the Goy kills him anyway, is the Jew a "kadosh?"
No, there he has made an active Chillul Hashem.....
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Mar 11 2008, 06:53 PM)
No, there he has made an active Chillul Hashem.....
Really, how? And how does the chillul Hashem negate the alleged kiddush Hashem which came about when he died for being Jewish?
What would have happened if it turned out that one of the MH7 was eating a Big Mac at the time he was shot?
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 13 2008, 09:25 PM)
What would have happened if it turned out that one of the MH7 was eating a Big Mac at the time he was shot?
There is a huge difference between eating a Big Mac and renouncing Judaism.....
Do you think he would have died "al kiddush hashem" if he would have been some chazerfresser sitting in Mickey D's when the A-rab came in and shot him for being Jewish? If "They were killed because they were Jews. It makes no difference if it is in a death camp or a blown up bus.....", then our chazerfresser should qualify for kiddush hashem status. But of course, martyring people who aren't like us doesn't really serve any emotional or political purpose, so no wonder.
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 14 2008, 05:22 AM)
Do you think he would have died "al kiddush hashem" if he would have been some chazerfresser sitting in Mickey D's when the A-rab came in and shot him for being Jewish? If "They were killed because they were Jews. It makes no difference if it is in a death camp or a blown up bus.....", then our chazerfresser should qualify for kiddush hashem status.
I think that he would... The fact that he was a chazerfresser has no bearing on the motivation for the A-rab to murder him.....
What if he was an atheist?
QUOTE (artscroll @ Mar 11 2008, 03:53 PM)
The origin of the appelation "kedoshim" as in"al kiddush hashem" was in the Jews killed (or who killed themselves and/ or each other) during the First Crusade. So it doesn't seem that it's a specific action at all.
By the way, the two situations aren't comparable, because the in many situations, the Jews could have converted. It's not like sudden death snuck up on them.
I'm bothered by the idea that it's the thoughts of the murderer rather than the actions/thoughts of the victim that matter.
QUOTE (Xi @ Mar 11 2008, 04:56 PM)
How is that mekadesh shem shomayim? If they died because they did not want to give up their religion specifically, it's one thing.
They died because they were Jewish. That's enough. I think the Holocaust should have taught all of us that when a person is murdered because he's Jewish you don't stop to ask how frum he was. Nazis, Arabs, whoever -- they don't care if you keep, or even believe in, the Torah.
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 14 2008, 08:49 AM)
They died because they were Jewish. That's enough.
what about non-jews who died in bus bombs that were targeted at jews? was their sacrifice also al kiddush hashem just because they were sitting next to a jew?
QUOTE (Arizona @ Mar 14 2008, 07:48 AM)
I'm bothered by the idea that it's the thoughts of the murderer rather than the actions/thoughts of the victim that matter.
I'm bothered by the fact that you're bothered by that. So the people who died in the Dolphinarium (sp?) bombing are less kadosh than the people that died in Mercaz Harav?
QUOTE (Spot @ Mar 14 2008, 07:53 AM)
what about non-jews who died in bus bombs that were targeted at jews? was their sacrifice also al kiddush hashem just because they were sitting next to a jew?
I don't know what the cheshbon is for non-Jews, but if they came to Israel to show their support, that's got to be worth something.
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 14 2008, 05:54 AM)
I'm bothered by the fact that you're bothered by that. So the people who died in the Dolphinarium (sp?) bombing are less kadosh than the people that died in Mercaz Harav?
For the record (although I hope it doesn't have to be stated): I am saddened by the deaths of any Jews (and many non-Jews).
However, I think it's the actions of the deceased that make them kadosh (not talking about frumkeit here). As was pointed the Jews who died in the crusades chose to die as Jews rather live as non-Jews. That's a powerful statement. Many Jews in the Holocaust chose to die with dignity and pride in being Jewish. Another powerful statement.
Someone who dies in a bus bombing, for instance, does not have the opportunity to make such a statement. Regardless of religiosity. That doesn't make their death better or less of a tragedy. But, just like countless other Jews who die tragically (car accidents, natural disasters, childhood cancer, gang violence, etc.), I'm not convinced it's al kiddush Hashem.
QUOTE (Arizona @ Mar 14 2008, 09:17 AM)
But, just like countless other Jews who die tragically (car accidents, natural disasters, childhood cancer, gang violence, etc.), I'm not convinced it's al kiddush Hashem.
I'm not down with that.
Would you say the same thing about Holocaust victims?
QUOTE (Arizona @ Mar 14 2008, 07:48 AM)
I'm bothered by the idea that it's the thoughts of the murderer rather than the actions/thoughts of the victim that matter.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 14 2008, 07:49 AM)
They died because they were Jewish. That's enough. I think the Holocaust should have taught all of us that when a person is murdered because he's Jewish you don't stop to ask how frum he was. Nazis, Arabs, whoever -- they don't care if you keep, or even believe in, the Torah.
How did the Holocaust teach us that? The Holocaust taught us a lot of historical things vis-a-vis antisemitism, but not a shred regarding Judaism or religion. It's just another example of people confusing tragedy for KIddush Hashem.
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 14 2008, 06:31 AM)
I'm not down with that.
Would you say the same thing about Holocaust victims?
Would you say the same thing about Holocaust victims?
Not quite sure what you mean.
QUOTE (Arizona @ Mar 14 2008, 10:21 AM)
Not quite sure what you mean.
Would you say this: "But, just like countless other Jews who die tragically (car accidents, natural disasters, childhood cancer, gang violence, etc.), I'm not convinced it's al kiddush Hashem" about non-frum Jews that died in the Holocaust?
...
To clarify: Holocaust victims who were killed because they couldn't get out in time did not die al kiddush Hashem.
I suggest you read this: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/kidush-2.htm, paying particular attention to this:
This view also makes an appearence in the MT, Yesodei HaTorah 2-3. Note that in #4, the Rambam holds that if a person gets killed for doing a mitzvah in a situation where he was not mechayev to be mekadesh HaShem, he is "mischayev b'nafsho."
I suggest you read this: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/kidush-2.htm, paying particular attention to this:
QUOTE
המין השלישי במדרגת הנהרגים על קדושת השם והאנוסים באונס השמד. דע כי בכל מקום שאמרו בו חז"ל "יהרג ואל יעבור", אם ייהרג כבר קידש את השם. ואם היה בעשרה מישראל - כבר קידש את השם ברבים, כמו חנניא מישאל ועזריה, ודניאל, ועשרה הרוגי מלכות, ושבעת בני חנה, ושאר ישראל הנהרגים על קדושת השם, הרחמן יקום נקמת דמיהם בקרוב. ובעדם נאמר תהלים נ' ה' "אספו לי חסידי כורתי בריתי עלי זבח". ואמרו חז"ל שה"ש רבה ב' ז'
"השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושלים" וגו', השבעתי בדורות של שמד, "בצבאות" שעשו לי צביוני ועשיתי צביונם, "או באילות השדה", ששפכו דמם עלי כדם צבי ואיל, ועליהם הוא אומר תהלים מ"ד כ"ג "כי עליך הורגנו כל היום".
ואיש שיזכהו האל לעלות במעלה עליונה כזאת, כלומר שנהרג על קדושת השם, אפילו היו עונותיו כמו ירבעם בן נבט וחבריו, הוא מעולם הבא, ואפילו לא היה תלמיד חכם. וכך אמרו ע"ה פסחים נ' א' ע"ש "מקום שהרוגי מלכות עומדים. אין כל בריה יכולה לעמוד במחיצתם, כגון ר' עקיבא וחבריו. וכ"ש דאיכא תורה ומעשים טובים, אלה הרוגי לוד".
"השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושלים" וגו', השבעתי בדורות של שמד, "בצבאות" שעשו לי צביוני ועשיתי צביונם, "או באילות השדה", ששפכו דמם עלי כדם צבי ואיל, ועליהם הוא אומר תהלים מ"ד כ"ג "כי עליך הורגנו כל היום".
ואיש שיזכהו האל לעלות במעלה עליונה כזאת, כלומר שנהרג על קדושת השם, אפילו היו עונותיו כמו ירבעם בן נבט וחבריו, הוא מעולם הבא, ואפילו לא היה תלמיד חכם. וכך אמרו ע"ה פסחים נ' א' ע"ש "מקום שהרוגי מלכות עומדים. אין כל בריה יכולה לעמוד במחיצתם, כגון ר' עקיבא וחבריו. וכ"ש דאיכא תורה ומעשים טובים, אלה הרוגי לוד".
This view also makes an appearence in the MT, Yesodei HaTorah 2-3. Note that in #4, the Rambam holds that if a person gets killed for doing a mitzvah in a situation where he was not mechayev to be mekadesh HaShem, he is "mischayev b'nafsho."
QUOTE (Goldfish @ Mar 14 2008, 11:01 AM)
Would you say this: "But, just like countless other Jews who die tragically (car accidents, natural disasters, childhood cancer, gang violence, etc.), I'm not convinced it's al kiddush Hashem" about non-frum Jews that died in the Holocaust?
This, by the way, is the flipside of the argument ad Hitlerum, and is called the argument ad Holocaustum.
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Mar 14 2008, 11:07 AM)
To clarify: Holocaust victims who were killed because they couldn't get out in time did not die al kiddush Hashem.
So frum Jews who died because they couldn't get out in time didn't die al kiddush Hashem either?
QUOTE
I suggest you read this: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/kidush-2.htm, paying particular attention to this:
Could you translate the important bits? I didn't understand it well enough. Because it seems to be saying to me that even if someone is like Yeravam ben Nevat, who wasn't such a good person*, even he is considered to have died al kiddush Hashem.
QUOTE
This view also makes an appearence in the MT, Yesodei HaTorah 2-3. Note that in #4, the Rambam holds that if a person gets killed for doing a mitzvah in a situation where he was not mechayev to be mekadesh HaShem, he is "mischayev b'nafsho."
I don't see how this is connected.
*understatement
The reference in the 2d to last post should be 5:2-3
QUOTE (Spot @ Mar 11 2008, 04:50 PM)
if someone is killed in a terrorist attack simply because they were jewish, was their death a kiddush hashem?
I would say it is a kiddush hashem. Terrorist dont want jews to fulfill the mitzva of living in E'Y, by doing so you are making a kiddush hashem and if you are killed why would that not be considered dying al kidush hashem?
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