And something not kosher was on the table what would you think?


Can we please not get distracted by the specifics? Anything without any hechsher whatsoever that torah observant ("orthodox") jews the world over agree need a hechsher, or cannot get a hechsher.

I just thought it was an interesting question to see the answer to.






My son's PRINCIPAL just came to the door and there was a clearly non kosher drink on the table- belonging to the cleaning lady. I didn't realize until I opened the door. I was so glad when she walked out of the other room, so it was clearer that it was not mine. I'm just curious if most ppl. would assume it had a "kosher" reason for being there.

What is a clearly non-kosher drink? Eau de Porky?

Depends what you mean- as in a hashgacha the principal might not hold, something that might not need a hashgacha (100% juice), or something that was really a problem- like grape juice.

Dan L'Kaf Zechut.

A solution might be, if possible- to provide the cleaning lady w/drinks while in the home. (cost could be an issue, but it could eradicate such a situation)

I wouldn't assume anything. I really wouldn't care.
These spoiler tags are getting very annoying and overused.

Yeah, I don't think I'd recognize a non-kosher drink on sight without actually picking up and checking for a hashgacha. I'm not even sure I'd specifically recognize a non-kosher packaged item unless it was Twinkies or something else notably not kosher.

Something without a hashgachah≠non-kosher

Something with a hashgachah you don't "hold by"≠something without a hashgachah

Ergo:Something with a hashgachah you don't "hold by"≠non-kosher

aren't they triangle k or something?

A well known non kosher (no hechsher whatso ever drink), I don't really want to debate the details.
"Whatever!" to your "solution". She walked into the house with it. What was I supposed to do, steal it? Besides the fact I have a cleaning lady because I need one to survive right now. ot so I can feed her, but thats another thread, and not the point.

They were.


[i remember when a classmate brought them to school for an 'in-class' birthday party. i said they weren't kosher (dec. 1992) and the kid said they were and the parents said they were-- they weren't yet under hashgacha at that point]

I doubt he even noticed it.

Its good that some people are like that. It was just so incongruous to ME to see something non kosher on my table.
Sorry, I wanted to share my situation but not turn the thread OT. Clearly it didn't help.

Clamato.

I probably wouldn't notice it..but say someone pointed it out to me, I would think:

1-Maybe it's kosher and I just don't know it.

2-Maybe someone left it here.

3-maybe they bought it by mistake.

Thanks. Although I suppose it's moot anyway because anything triangle K is treif anyway, isn't it?

Well, Bird, it's either what you want to hear, or what you're scared of hearing:

What you want to hear:
"I would assume the drink belonged to an at-risk youth you were just mekarev on the way home and you needed to ask a sheiloh as to how to dispose of it, (because of bal tashchis) and you're waiting for your LOR to get back to you with a psak."

What you're fear:
"I would assume the inhabitants of the house are Closet Apikursim and habitual sinners."

Choose your own adventure.

There are times when we buy something from the store and then later realize there is no hashkacha or it is similar to what we wanted. For example: it could be the treif meaty pasta sauce instread of the marinara sauce which is kosher. Either way we'd just return it or go back and switch it.

Bingo.

I would think someone asked them about it or was a mistake, and they hadn't gotten around to pitching it.
Based on real life experience.
We had a non-kosher item in our house that an organization asked my father (who is a mashgiach about), and it was in our kitchen so he could call appropriate agencies to verify it was something they definitely had to throw out the whole stock of before wasting all that money.
Any guests that came in (it was an erev Y"T he got it, and so it was a few days before he verified that it was a problem) he actually made sure to let people know (people from all walks of life; he didn't want them to think it was something they could go ahead and buy).

I didn't know that. I might've tried them if I'd known.

Gosh, I'd never assume they eat/drink non-kosher. Of course I'd assume there's some sort of explanation. Or, I'd ask outright - "hey, is that stuff kosher?"

You still could. It's not like they've been baking them with lard and lacing them with Clamato except for a short hiatus when it had the hechsher. It's more like they realized the marginal extra revenue didn't justify paying for the hashgachah.

Bird, if it was me and I noticed I would probably ask something like 'I didn't know that was kosher? How did you find out about that?' at which point you could say "I have no idea. It's my cleaning ladies." This way I"m not really saying you don't keep kosher, since I don't think that but noticed something unusual.

I think your way is more obnoxious than Belle's way.

People say that a lot around here. It's not my thing.

What's Clamato? Clam sauce?

It's a thing they sell that looks like tomato juice but is somehow derived from Clams.

Clam meets V8

I thought it was very similar (and missed belle's post, as I skipped reading after the first few) but I agree that her way seems nice.

[Do you just think that because you think Belle is nicer than me?]

No I think her way is nicer and I generally disagree about your anti-social attitude when it comes to kashrus. But it's nothing personal.

That sounds really gross.

What a riot. I'm probably one of the blunt ones here, definitely not nicer than you, FYI.

I probably be 'so they drink That???'..... And i would definitely not ask any questions about it. Its none of my business like most things i see in other peoples houses.

Bad things happen when you think. There's probably a legitimate reason for it (as listed above).

Unless it's something that just went unkosher or off the hechsher or dairy and the person keeps CY. Then it should be mentioned.

That's a BY education al regel achas.

I would think they had a guest who didn't know much about kashrus and brought a gift for the hosts. Happens all the time in my parents' house. But it's likely I wouldn't even notice it or think about it too deeply.

See? BY educations have their good points.

I like the "buy the cleaning lady drinks" solution. It's a nice gesture and reduces the risk of halachicly unfortunate spills, people raising eyebrows, etc.



Makes sense. I'm assuming in this case the drink was opened and some was missing.

For me, I wouldn't think much into it. Certainly, as people have pointed out, there's plenty room for benefit of the doubt.

But, you often don't know that she will be bringing a drink so even if you have the drinks ready/available, it doesn't mean she didn't stop by 7-11 on her way over and pick up her favorite drink and leave it on your table. It's a nice gesture but won't necessarily solve the problem.

That there was an explanation.

(I once had to constantly drink on a fast day [6 years ago this coming 13 adar actually] and was drinking from a water bottle in a semi-public/private place - I assumed people would assume there was an explanation).

Didn't think of that. What if she comes to know that you'll always have drinks for (and you could ask her what she likes when you set up the first job)? She wouldn't have to stop by the store.



And they problaby did. That is, unless you let people outside of h.com know the true extent of your heresy.

So I deducing that straight tomato juice would require a hashgacha, because of items like this?

We got the red color issue too.

If you saw someone walking into/ out of a McDonald's you'd assume there was an explanation. But what if you saw someone eating a burger in McDonald's? (You'd see them eating because of your own explanation for being inside.)

You know the joke about the rabbi eating roasted pig in Hawaii, of course.

(If I would do that, I figure everyone would assume I'm pregnant, even if it's not true. At least you didn't have to worry about that problem.)

Tell me.

It's a variation on this:


A Rabbi was walking home from the Temple and saw one of his good friends, a pious and learned man who could usually beat the rabbi in an argument. The rabbi started walking faster so that he could catch up to his friend, when he was horrified to see his friend go into a Chinese restaurant (not a kosher one).

Standing at the door, he observed his friend talking to a waiter and gesturing at a menu. A short time later, the waiter reappeared carrying a platter full of spare ribs, shrimp in lobster sauce, crab Rangoon and other treif that the Rabbi could not bear to think about.

As his friend picked up the chopsticks and began to eat this food, the Rabbi burst into the restaurant and reproached his friend, for he could take it no longer.

"Morris, what is this you are doing? I saw you come into this restaurant, order this filth and now you are eating it in violation of everything we are taught about the dietary laws and with an apparent enjoyment that does not befit your pious reputation!"

Morris replied, "Rabbi, did you see me enter this restaurant?" (Rabbi nods yes) "Did you see me order this meal?" (again he nods yes) "Did you see the waiter bring me this food?" (again he nods yes) "And did you see me eat it?" (nods yes)

"Then, Rabbi, I don't see the problem here. The entire thing was done under Rabbinical supervision."


[It's funnier in my version (ordering a whole pig on a stick while on vacation in Hawaii), and when a rabbi says it, but whatever]

There are certainly limits. I assume people assume there's an explanation when it's reasonable to do so. Seeing someone eat on a minor fast day in a semi-private/public place is not so out of the ordinary since it's easy to come up with reasonable explanations rather than needing to assume outlandish explanations. So too for example seeing someone in a meat restaurant during Lent the nine days or seeing a frum man with a blond babe obviously not his wife. On the other hand, I wouldn't assume that people assume there's an explanation when someone is sitting eating a burger in McDonalds since that would require outlandish explanations [assuming we're talking about in a metropolitan area, that sort of thing, where it's unreasonable to come up with a reasonable explanation, like the time my brother had to take a friend into McDonalds for a milkshake because the friend was having a life threatening diabetic episode].
So no, this isn't unlimited.
So too would I not have necessarily openly had water on a fast day were the people there not all frum since then an ignoramous might conclude that it's ok to eat on a fast day.
But I'm talking about among peers. I was standing there drinking with tzitzit out and visibly Orthodox - anyone seeing me would conclude there's a reasonable explanation. So too the opening post - someone coming into the opening poster's home would reasonably conclude there's an explanation. Seeing a bottle of treifus on her table doesn't require outlandish explanations. Seeing her open a sealed bottle of treifus and drinking it...that's another story.

[A question for h.com might be if I had been wearing jeans when drinking on a fast day in an extreme Rightist area if I would have been oveir lifnei iveir by putting the casual observer in a situation where he would naturally conclude I'm a sinner ]

[no. Presumably you were wearing a baseball cap.]