[I wasn't sure if this should go in Halachah since I'm not convinced it's a halachic issue as much as a societal issue or a Jewish fundamental issue, the fundamental being that women should be silenced and disempowered].

Is there such a thing as female mashgiachs? [mashgichot?] Even if so, why aren't there more of them? It seems to me it's a beautiful job for a bas yisroel. Many are certainly familiar with cooking & food prepraration issues and food issues and kashrut issues, possibly more so than many men. Maybe even more so than the bochrim that are sometimes utilized. We trust women with respect to kashrut, don't we? The hours are probably somewhat flexible, it's not physically strenuous [except when they have to climb into those tanker trucks]. Why isn't this a career opportunity for Sarah Draizel to support her husband who is learning in kollel? Not for shechitah maybe, but let's say as a mashgiach temidi at a restaurant, camp, hotel or Alaskan Kosher Cruise?

I've actually seen quite a few female "mashgichot"...

i also know several girls who took the job for the summer or winter break, but it doesn't pay that much (~$8 i think) and wouldn't be enough to support sara draizel, let alone her husband [and kids] while he's in kollel.

But there are men who are mashgichim who support their families, aren't there? Those guys I see sitting checking lettuce against a backlight, for instance. They look kinda married to me.
And we recently had to pay a mashgiach something like $300 for a recent event at a shul, although I have no idea what percent he takes home and what percent goes to the certification agency. That's not peanuts if on a regular basis.

maybe the girls were just getting paid less because they were girls and they didn't learn all that gemara to back up their kashrus certification.

eta: is it possible to be "kinda" married?

Could be. I realize in the Orthodox world single girls are at the bottom of the pay scale. But let's say you had a knowledgable woman. Is there anything inherently wrong with a female mashgiach? Are they not so common, at least among the higher paying positions, simply because they lack sufficient gemara knowledge?


Edit: they kinda look married.

This dude on the left kinda looks married to me. He's the mashgiach, not the dudette on the right:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...nt=DSC03102.jpg

i don't see a problem with it, but if she's a knowledgable woman she can get a better job.
there are a lot more options for girls than boys in the near-min-wage catagory; people will hire young girls in preschools or as nannys, whereas a lot less people would hire a bachur.

How much "Gemara Knowledge" is required to be a masgiach
How many Yeshivos even learn that stuff???

Sure, most politicians are "kinda" married...

Exactly. I think the "knows more gemara" argument is a red herring.


So again, why don't I see so many female mashgichot? I don't think I've ever seen one in a restaurant or catering enterprise or Kosher Alaskan Cruise. [That's obviously hyperbole. My point is that they are seemingly few and far between]. Maybe as part time fill ins at a camp, as you mentioned, but I'm talking professionally.

just cuz you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there... maybe you don't see them because they're so tzanua.

Good point.
Or maybe the dudette on the right really was the mashgiach, and I just assumed, in my sexist bias, that the mashgiach was the dude on the left.

I once asked a local rabbi about female mashgichim, he mentioned that only a few exist.

A while back I wanted to apply to a kosher culinary school but was dismayed that halacha was only taught to the men, while women were supposed to absorb halacha through osmosis or something.

Regardless of gender, my concern is competency, knowledge and understanding. If there's an issue in the kitchen I'd want the mashgiach to ask a shailah if necessary- if s/he doesn't know what to do. Shabbos is most especially an issue- where things can get rather complicated and I've heard from the source on several occasions (reliable source didn't want to go into detail) that things were done in a cut corner way and at times could be viewed a violations of shabbos.

That all said, I am suspect of caterers, in any case.

eta: I distinctively remember asking a friend if she learned anything about kashrut in high school- she mentioned that her husband's school taught halacha l'ma'aseh regarding common home kashrut issues (which can differ from commercial and industrial settings)in senior year-- because the girls don't know anything.

Home taught kashrut from mother to daughter isn't usually taught with sefarim, rather more by watching and learning first-hand.

I know one female mashgicha, she probably got the job because her father is in hashgacha. I wanted to do this a few years ago when my brother was making lots of cash in the 'business' but it didn't seem possible in the NY area.

Welcome to Orthodoxy.



Right. What actually prompted this thread was two things: Yesterday Classic commented when I said something about a mikvah lady making a ruling. This is sort of the same thing - the mashgiach in theory is just a proxy for a rabbi, just like a mikvah lady, and if a woman can be a mikvah lady, why not a mashgiach? A mashgiach is not offering piskei halachah or hora'ah any more than a mikvah lady is. The second thing was an article I read last night in the newspaper about R. Dr. Sperber and there was mention there that he said women should be able to be mashgichot.


Right. I'm wondering out loud why that is.


First of all, I would suggest that possibly a woman watching and learning first hand probably has a more realistic grasp of the issues than someone learning about the six types of blood or what happens when the cow is rinsed off before being salted long enough or how many stomachs a cow has.
Just like a guy can have 15 years of mesivta, yeshivah, and kollel under his belt, and still not know how to prepare baby cereal shabbat morning.
I would also suggest that the issue here is that barriers are being constructed on purpose.

For what it's worth, this female had a kashrus course in school... they have booklets on the subject.

hmm. [It wasn't even an issue of not being fair-- they teach cooking skills, techniques, etc and enable the men to have a foundation in halacha with relation to food and preparation-- why not provide something similar (in a separate setting, if necessary) for women?]




Would it be different if the mashgiach (if male) had 'smicha in kashrus'? Or if the mikvah lady was a yoetzet halacha?

In what way?
In any event, many, many mashgiachs and many, many mikvah ladies don't have semichah or yoetzet halachah certification.

Correct...we assume that they are competent, knowledgeable and looking out for those that consume the product/those who are doing tevilah, etc.

But what's the basis of our assumption? Can a high school kid check lettuce unsupervised?

So lets go further, what defines the role of mashgiach in terms of scope and knowledge/experience/education? What about for the mikvah lady?

I'll disagree with this part. Since for many small businesses, hiring a full-time mashgiach is a big expense, the mashgiach will often be given other "chores" to do around the plant, which can indeed be physically strenuous. Depending on which hashgachah you work for, there may be different rules about the type of work the mashgiach can be given to do. And the hours aren't necessarily a picnic either. Hashgachah jobs may involve waking up extremely early or staying until late at night, not to mention traveling to weird locations. Technically I see no reason why a woman can't do it if she wants to but it's not as easy or flexible as you might think.

Yes. One of the main mashgichim in my father's organization is a female.

BTW, hashgacha IS strenuous many times, depending on the location. In factory and industrial settings, there can be large containers the mashgichim lift to check things out, they might have to be on their feet for a long time, and it sometimes entails going through the garbage...Boiling vats of water might be needed to kasher a kitchen in a hotel for instance for a special kosher affair, and it's not light work.

One? Out of how many?




Fair enough. Thank you for setting the record straight.

The Iggros Moshe has a teshuva about a (male) mashgiach who died, and his wife wanted to take over the position in order that she could have parnossa for her family. I believe this was for some sort of a factory. Rav Moshe ruled that she could, but I believe that he heavily stressed that it was because this was a special circumsance, and having an almana be able to provide for her family was a big mitzvah/chessed.

So, I don't really know what R' Moshe holds miIkkar HaDin, but I'll add that I grew up in a town where I can remember women mashgichim. Particularly at the shul's kitchen where although there was no official hechsher on the kitchen, the rav set the standards and chose mashgichim who he felt were knowlegeable enough in the required halachos, and had the level of neemanus that he demanded.

THe Igerot Moshe are YD 2:44 and 45.
Click to view attachment

I don't have the patience to read this thread, but I definitely know of a female (single at the time, post sem) who worked as a mashgiach. I do not know her salary. But, as is often the case with mashgichim she did double-duty, was considered onstaff mashgiach AND had to do other work for the place.


[I think the OPS only wants men because imagine if you go to a restaurant and say 'can I please speak to mashgiach?' and a woman comes out, would you be a bit stunned?]

Luckily I had the patience to read this post.
In any event, you're mentioning an anecdotal single case. The claim stands that it's unusual and not ordinary.


I'm willing to venture an opinion, which is more rantings that I derive from general ignorance and stalk-trolling internet fora, that the issue is not strictly halachic but is due at least in part to social conditioning. I doubt that all these singular cases [yours, Agent220's example] are impoverished widows taking over from their deceased husbands, rachmana litzlan.

Would you be stunned if you asked to speak to the torah true school accountant and a woman ventured forth from the office?

3 or 4 full-timers.
Not bad, wouldn't you say?
(There was another one who was part time, but she made aliya.)

They're not. The one I am speaking about right now actually had experience managing a bakery so she knew a lot of the "food scene". This is a food-related job that doesn't include waiting on tables or actually cooking.

It's better than zero I suppose. But last I checked females make up something like 50% of the Jewish population. We're hearing in this thread about individuals who seem to be the exception for the most part.

Thanks Melech. So, it seems from reviewing the teshuvos that R' Moshe held that perhaps there may be a problem with having a woman as a mashgiach becuase of the Rambam's shitta that appointing a woman to any position (minnuy) is assur. For the case of the almana, he was willing to rely on those rishonim who argue with the Rambam. But he gives an eitza by which we could eliminate completely the problem of the Rambam, and in a lechatchila way have a woman serve as a mashgiach (mashgichah).

Now that I see that you knew of this teshuva, I understand what your point was with your original post. If it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to be a mashgiach (at least according to R' Moshe) then why don't more women take advantage of this profession to help support their families.

Although I concede that "perfectly acceptable" may be overstating it a bit. It depends how you spin it. But the reality is that since some women, albeit few, are mashgichim, the problems are not insurmountable. But yes, the question is why more women don't take advantage of this profession.

[As an aside, I have asked a similar question previously about checking for shatnez].

Yes, it was lucky for you.

That could be social conditioning. I don't know.

Had it been two years ago, yes, but the current financial person at my son's school is a woman. Both my elementary and high school had a man in that position. My high school now has a woman but that occurred after I left.


I think the issue is that often hasghacha requires a lot more than showing up at a restaurant once in a while. It often requires traveling, learning how to shecht animals, and somesuch and while it may be possible for a woman to learn, it would be very draining on her and her family. IT's one thing for a father to be away on business, another for a mother.

[In my community, I believe they pay the woman shaatnez checkers more since they are more difficult to come by, and can often also sew the seam back up, so can pay a bit more and get both things taken care of.]

That's so cool.

Do you find it shocking that a woman would be the chief financial officer of a torah true school?


I seriously doubt that many of the mashgichim temidi'im in restaurants, catering businesses and Alaskan Kosher Cruises are shochatim. In any event, in a post above I specifically excluded a woman from being a mashgiach for shechitah - that's a red herring to say she can't do shechitah and therefore she can't check that I'm not bringing treif into my shul for a function.
As for mom being away, again, it depends what type of mashgiach we're talking about. Again, I'm talking about a mashgiach temidi at a restaurant or catering business. If you start with the argument how women shouldn't be away from their families, then that's an individual decision, not a decision the community should be making, that women shouldn't be mashgiachs since then some might be away from their families.

Are there any independent female shatnez checkers not working for a man?

No, but I don't find many things shocking. Actually I just learned that boy's schools don't hire females to teach secular studies. I found that pretty shocking.


I understand your point. What I am trying to say that of the 5 or so mashgichim I know from my local area, they tend to be doing double/triple duty. A restaurant is not enough and is only once in a while to show up so they are often doing more things. (even taking shochet out of the equation.) You are correct that a woman could do the job and I am not sure why it's not done.

I don't know who runs the organization. I have no idea if it's headed by a male or female. But there are no independant checkers where I live, it's all under one umbrella.

Not in Toronto where one needs a mashgiach temidi. All of a sudden. Because halachah changes.

For a restauarant? I thought a mashgiach only has to walk in at random times, have a key, go into back, (pack up some food for his family) and go home.

Eh, no. Depending on the setup, shouldn't s/he have keys to the fridges, check incoming shipments, check vegetables/fruit if not already done, turn on gas/fire for cooking (depending on pilot, etc. and hashgacha's requirements), watch and make sure workers don't bring in unapproved food or warm up items in ovens, etc.

What if the kitchen ran out of cream cheese and a worker had to go to a store to pick up some CY cheese?

I agree s/he should have keys to fridges.
I don't know about incoming shipments, how common do they arrive. Is the mashgiach always there for that?
I agree s/he should be checking fruits/veggies.
I agree s/he should be turning on gas/fire if no pilot

Don't they have a special section for workers to keep their own items and when mashgiach comes in, he can look around for this. Does he need to be there full-time for this.

If a restaurant needs to pay a mashgiach a FULL salary, how do they earn any money?

25-33% is a good chunk. IMHO.
But most women don't want this type of job. My father has to wear boots and hard hats a lot. There are less females in many professions; I don't think it's an issue with the way women are treated in frum society. I think it's completely irrelevant. It just doesn't interest too many women.
Also, many women don't have the patience to learn a lot of halachic nuances that come up on the spot. Yes, there is a Rabbinic Administrator/posek where questions are directed, but the mashgichim do need to know quite a bit beyond reading labels.
(Also in that city, % of full-time working frum women is much lower than % of full-time working frum men, so it's not a 50/50 pool to choose from.)

And in some locales irrespective of whether the restaurant is milchig or fleishig a mashgiach t'midi is sometimes required when the owner of said restaurant isn't shomer shabbos. Again, a non-Jewish owned place is a different store, too- also depending on what's sold/made, etc.

My thing is that some caterers use random people- there isn't real accountability- they may use Avi on Monday, Shimmy on Tuesday and Nadav on Wednesday.

The question is if there are barriers to women who would want to pursue this as a career.

What type of training would you suggest she needs? Would it differ from the guys?

I have no idea what kind of training mashgichim require. The guy at my shul whom I had to pay to make sure the event was kosher - what kind of training did he get? Or the guy with the toothpick constantly twirling between his teeth checking the lettuce at the restaurant downtown - what kind of training did he get? I suppose it would be the same for men and women.I can't imagine that it would differ between men and women since a mashgiach is a mashgiach. Is there a certification process? Training and testing and continuing education and evaluation? I have no idea.
The only difference, again, might be in some limited areas. For example, being a mashgiach for shechitah. But that's a small percentage of the industry.

I think it depends on the organization. Many require shadowing for a bit before going off on own I believe.

Great. So why did Bluelaptop experience barriers?

That's exactly it- what does the mashgiach know [that you don't]? How involved is the mashgiach/should the mashgiach be?

And again, the mashgiach is sometimes in a location where the owner/manager of store/restaurant./catering facility puts pressure on him/her that - I recently read somewhere about a mashgiach answering the phone and a potential customer asking about the shechita of the meat procured there, the customer asked if a certain shechita was served. An answer was given (with the manager or owner standing behind the mashgiach) that wasn't 100% accurate, when the customer arrived he was dismayed.

After I read, see and discuss these issues with people I wonder...

That's also true. When we touched on the issue of whether a mashgiach is paskening or not, I wondered to myself how he can if he's financially involved, since the restaurant is paying him, although perhaps indirectly. But then it's the same thing as a rabbi - I'm asking a question but indirectly paying his salary. Although a rav is different because 1. a restaurant pays a very large percent of the masgiach's salary whereas I am only one of 600 congregants and 2. the restaurant in theory can fire the mashgiach if they don't like the answer, but I am beholden to my rabbi.
In any event, the question stands, and mashgichim are probably often faced with a conflict of interest. It must be sometimes difficult and a mashgiach must have tremendous integrity to do what's right and to walk a fine line.

I know we have discussed this to death previously but I can't resist beating a dead horse:

Which is why I can't understand how people who are so hung up about a mashgiach temidi and which certification meets their standards and which is beneath their contempt are still fine eating where there is no certification whatsoever such as at coffee or ice cream places [the example used previously is Baskin Robbins when you have no idea if the worker ran out of sprinkles and went to the corner store to buy treif sprinkles].