http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/jew...5126174610.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/03/...5126111228.html
One parent told The Age that [the accused], who is believed to be in her late 40s, was hand-picked from Israel to teach at the girls' school eight years ago, not because of her teaching abilities but for her ultra-orthodox beliefs. The parent said she was widely regarded as the second holiest person in the community, behind spiritual leader Rabbi Avrohom Zvi Beck.
...
The Australian Jewish News also reported that on Saturday last week, Rabbi Beck addressed the community and said they should not consider [the accused] guilty of any crimes because there had been no investigation. He told the congregation that if they discussed the matter, it would be considered lashon hara (malicious gossip), the paper reported.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/iso...5126111234.html
THEY could be called the Amish of the Jewish community: ultra-orthodox, ultra-reclusive and ultra-strict. On the Jewish Sabbath and holy days, the men of Melbourne's Adass community stand out with their tall fur hats and long, black silk coats, while the women usually cover their heads with a scarf or hat.
...
People come to Elsternwick and Ripponlea like tourists to stare at this apparently medieval cultural relic from eastern Europe.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_me...an-scandal.html
A Melbourne correspondent tells me that the story seems to be something like this. The principal seduced and had sex with several, perhaps many, different girls, some below the age of 18. One of these girls eventually got married but found the marital bed to be unsatisfying or difficult. She sought counseling. In counseling, she admitted her relationship with the principal. The counselor called police.
...
Rabbi Beck's brother is one of the Neturi Karta rabbis who went to Tehran for the Holocaust denial conference. Beck himself is a Vishnitzer hasid.

It's unbelievable to me that this school would protect this alleged child molester by facilitating her escape instead of helping her alleged victims by keeping her in the country to face the criminal justice system.

It's not unusual

Why am I not surprised anymore?
Sexual abuse can do many things to a person. One thing that it CAN'T do is make you gay. Chas veSholom we should miss an opportunity to remind everyone that Neturei Karta are the root of all evil, right? I can guarantee that NK was not even remotely involved in aiding or abetting this. good lines.

[one word changed in your post - I am not commenting on this particular alleged case which may have no basis in fact]

Standard operating procedure.

NOT true, I think a high percentage of homosexuals are that way as a result of sexual abuse or other "sexual trauma" early in life.....

Although at the age in question, you are probably right.....

Research shows environmental factors can certainly have an effect in the first 12 months of life, and perhaps (though less and less) up to age 3 or 4.

Why are we calling this child abuse? It seems from the article, which, granted, is sparse on details, that the girls were about 18, some older, some possibly younger, but in no way "children". Obviously it's not right that principals should have lesbian sex with students though.

Again, I'm not commenting on this particular alleged story which may have no basis in fact...
but in general, at least in Canada and I assume in other jurisdictions as well, it doesn't matter if the alleged victim is of legal age of consent or not when the alleged perpetrator is in a position of authority.

So if your boss has sex with you, it's child abuse?

Actually it makes no difference whether it's lesbian sex or heterosexual sex. Either way it's an abuse of power.

It's more fun to say "lesbian sex".

No. Unless you are a child. "Position of authority" does not mean your boss at work. There are certain categories. To take an extreme example, a therapist having sex with a patient who is currently being treated by that therapist, or a rabbi having sex with a congregant who comes to him for counselling.
Note that I'm making no claim as to whether it's necessarily illegal or even professional misconduct, but it's a consideration even when the alleged victim is older than the age of sexual consent.

OK but a therapist having sex with her patient is not child abuse. And while it is wrong for her to take advantage of her position, it is not nearly as wrong as actual child abuse.

What Moshi said.

You can't begin to compare a 35 year old yeshiva student having sex with his Rebbi (who is in a position of authority) with a 14 year old student having sex with a Rebbi.

Correct. Sorry if I implied otherwise; I didn't mean to and the error is mine. I reread the flow of the posts - I meant to say that it's still possibly illegal or at least possibly professional misconduct. I did not mean to say it's child abuse. That's clearly absurd. If a person in position of authority takes advantage of his or her position and the victim is not a minor then it's not child abuse, correct.


Maybe.

In a way you can, since rejecting an approach from someone in a position of authority can be difficult, given the fear of retribution. Also, some people get ahead by having sex with the boss. Not good.

Now, a shrink having sex with a client is a violation of professional ethics which is a completely different ball game, but is certainly not "abuse"

What bothers me is that I can almost understand and am completely not suprised. Not so much b/c stories like this are prevelent, but b/c of the very misguided view of what is considered holy and rightous among the very frum. I have always noticed that the ideolized person in the very yeshivish world is someone who is completely removed from this world, someone who completely closes themeselves off from reality, they believe they are closer to this spiritual and G-Dly state, the true reality. IMHO, if such a person exist, i have never met him/her. In reality, a person who falls in this catagory to me is in a very dangerous and vulnerable state, they usualy are completely not in touch with themselves emotionaly and psychologicaly.

Hmm.... I meant what I wrote. The information about the school paying for her to flee Australia appeared to be a fact verified by the writers of the article.

That was not my impression per the quote below from the article where they were describing schooling in this particular community of 150 families. Plus, it is called "Adass Israel Girls' School", so that sounds like we are talking about children.

Very good post. I never understood why those [evidently fake] stories of gedolim who were absolutely clueless, like the one of the Chazon Ish not recognizing his own reflection on a mirror, were supposed to reflect positively on them. Actually, someone who can't recognize himself in a mirror (just by the equivalence of all movements) would have to be profoundly mentally disadvantaged, which the Chazon Ish most certainly was not.

I understand that. But I am naturally skeptical of news articles. They are often based on fact, but are not necessarily always factually accurate. That's not to say I automatically discount the possibility that the article is accurate, but neither to I automatically accept it as totally accurate. My point is that I am reserving judgment.

I was taking it from the failedmessiah quote. But the facts in this particular case so far are very sparse, so no sense in arguing over them.

That's fine, but you corrected what I wrote, not what you wrote, based on your own personal standards of skepticism.


Not arguing at all. I actually hadn't read the article you referenced yet, so perhaps my impression will change once I do.

As I get older and try to transform my bitterness of my upbringing into something more positive. I have started suspecting that the gedolim that were related to me were from the perspective of simpler people, that their ideas and struggles may have been more profound and that their personal thoughts were more complex than we are told to believe. The fact that someone learned all of shas by 3, never took his head out of a sefer and had a suitcase under his bed ready for moshiach is unrelatable to me. To relate this point to current events, by spreading these types of stories of great people in this fashion gives us a very erroneous understanding of what it is to be great person. So this nut, who probably had some serious psychological disorders, was seen to be very "heilig", she had all the right requirements of a leader, just like the stories of great people we heard about growing up.
Again, IMHO, a person of greatness is someone who is self actualized, introspective a strong awareness of self and the world around themselves, this person is quite normal. But we dont like normal, its more "spiritual" if the person seems in the clouds and is completely close minded, we feel like possibly this person is closer to something than we are. They are not, and these are the most dangerous of people and we are giving them the power. Hashem Yerachem.

Just to respond to the post by someone who asked why is it called child abuse if the girls are 18? They were not 18 at the time of the abuse. The Adass girls school only goes up to 10th grade. After that they either go to sem.get married or come to the lubavitch school for the last 2 years if the families are moderate enough. Plus there is only 2 girls that we know about is. It doesnt mean that there werent others that they are keeping quiet.

The irony is that this is the same community who decided that they would have people checking the women's section of the shul to make sure that they are sniertz enough. THere was a big uproar and Tzvi Beck backed down but Melbourne is much more moderate than some other ultra-orthodox commmunities in certain ways. They have to be. Modern ORthodox. Lubavitch and Adass Yisoroel communities live shoulder to shoulder and every once in a while marry into each other.

I would absolutely believe that they paid her to leave to Israel. It isnt the first time but usually occurs when someone does something financially wrong. They had security services outside of the shul - thyey dont want the embarassment. I think if its true they all deserve what they get. She allegedly stole 150 thouand dollars as well - 50 from a gemach and 100 she borrowed from someone.

Rav Beck happens to be a very chashuve yid, and just because his brother is a NK extremist says absolutely nothing about him!

I disagree. Everybody has things they are into. Some people are into gashmius. Some people are into ruchnius. Some people really care if the Giants win the Super Bowl. They prepare before hand by ordering tons of food etc. Rare individuals really care about Mashiach comingt. Maybe one in a generation leaves a suitcase under his bed.
Lawyers can work 14 hours a day because they are driven to succeed, make money, either for themselves, to support a familly etc. There are lawyers who sleep on a cot near their desk sometimes. Same can be said for acountants before tax season.
Some unique talmiday chachamim are the same in learning. They learn 14 hours a day. All they care about is learning. Thewy want to know Hashem's Torah. They know that after 120 every word of Torah will bring them closer to Hashem. This world is unimportant to them. I can't do that. But they can.
I'm learning Nefesh Hachaim (taped shiurim). He talks about kabala inyanim and how we have a neshama. How we are tied to Hashem. Isn't that inspiring? I wish I would have been taught more of this untill know. We say we are a chelek Elokim Mimaal. Aside from that I know no more about the concept. But its an amazing concept. Maybe if you are the Chazon Ish you don't look in the mirror when you are 70 years old. (I never heard that story.)
Mother Theresa gave up gashmius to help the poor. Doesn't that impress you?
Reb Noson Tzvi Finkel of Mir says shiur despite his Parkinsons. Only a person who is ruchni can do that. His gashmi was depleted a long time ago.
People are looking for meaning in like. At least I am. True meaning. We have a guf. We don't live in gan eden. But some can get closer to it in this world than others.

Again, this proves what I've been saying for years: the repression of normal healthy sexual urges, this crazy un-Jewish obsession with 'tzniut', the fanatic segregation of the sexes, doth not 'sin' eliminate, it merely causes said sexual urges to resurface in very unhealthy ways. That is why we are seeing a preponderance of sexual abuse incident among the most 'frummest' of communties.

I find this part of the story very telling. Without knowing anything more about the case, I think we have to acknowledge that it might have been this particular young woman who is the root.

WAIT, I'm not advocating blaming the victim.

I'm just pointing out that it's possible that it was a girl's inappropriate fantasy that either got mixed up with reality in her mind or was reported to the therapist in such a way as to seem like it happened when it did not.

We're very quick to jump on the principal but she might well be the innocent tzaddikes she portrays herself to be.



Without tackling your basic claim, the quote I read did not say that the girl was now a lesbian. It said she "found the marital bed to be unsatisfying or difficult". Big difference. Perhaps she now pairs sexual excitement with domination and her husband isn't dominating her. Or, perhaps she is turned on by secrecy and risk of discovery which are absent from a publicly sanctioned marriage.

We do?!? I sure don't. I'd rather rely on the information provided by The Age rather than information from a blog of dubious journalistic standards.


Just because you prefaced your remarks by saying that you're not advocating blaming the victim doesn't actually mean that you didn't proceed to do exactly that. There is absolutely no information in the articles by the legitimate news organizations to suggest anything remotely close to what you suggested [in terms of this being a girl's inappropriate fantasy or such], so you're essentially coming up with your own excuses for why this might not really be true. I know that for now these are allegations and not proven facts, but to me you bringing up some far reaching explanation for this story is quite offensive. There is no reason to believe that these victims are not telling the truth.

On the other hand, the fact that this woman fled the country just 24 hours after she was fired gives me very good reason to believe that she is guilty of at least some of the allegations. Innocent people stay to clear their name, they don't flee the jurisdiction before any actions can be taken against them.

Sorry that I offended you. However, I strongly believe that we, as Jews, need to acknowledge that there might be other explanations of which we are not aware. Otherwise, why bother having a trial at all? Let's just stone the principal on the spot and have it done.

In addition, I do NOT blame victims. I DO acknowledge that 1. sometimes therapists make a case where there is none; and 2. sometimes someone who is suffering from their own personal issues can make a case where there is none. Would you like me to bring case examples of this happening?

Clearly these are serious charges and need to be treated as such. True, the principal fleeing doesn't look good (on the other hand, would you want to be home when the lynch mob arrives?) But, having a verdict without an investigation isn't doing either party any favors.

We had a similar story here, a chashuv Rabbi who helps troubled marriages started sleeping around with the married women he was dealing with and fled to Israel.
Why are these stories becoming more common? This isn't the first recently and it won't be the last

Yes there indeed might be other explanations, and this woman should not be condemned on the spot as there certainly is the possibility that she is innocent. There should be a proper investigation which she should participate in by remaining in Australia and cooperating with the proper authorities.
Not necessary, I've heard of such cases. Obviously neither of us knows if she is innocent or guilty, but when it comes to rape/sexual abuse cases I personally give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victims not the alleged perpetrators.
I agree with you there, but by leaving the country she is making it more difficult for there to be a fair investigation, so she can't now proclaim that she isn't getting a fair investigation. If she wants to clear her name she should come back to Australia. She can live apart from that community if she chooses for her own safety, but I think she should face the music.

Like I said, she should have stayed. It makes her look guilty and hampers the investigation.

I try to give the benefit of the doubt to both parties. Especially since I'm so far away that it's not like there's anything I can do to support/harm anyone.

LH can bring harm.

all the more reason to not villify either side

What would be the reason to talk about it at all? A link spreads awareness; what does a whole thread do?

I could accept the Chazon Ish not ever looking at himself in mirrors intentionally, but it doesn't explain the lack of self-awareness when it happened accidentally.(hence the story is bogus)
Mother Theresa was an incredibly power-hungry, dictatorial and cruel character in real life. Forget what you got from the mass media. If I could only find the Vanity Fair exposé on her....

Is this becoming more common, or are you just hearing about them more?

Who knew that some good was accomplished in the Jewish community in the past few years?

you know, i really do wonder. i mean all these crazy stories - cheating, child abuse, molesting (yes, i'm aware of a few known now cases from, what, 20-30 years ago, but still). what does everyone think?

A bit of both

וואו עס קריסטעלט זיך, אזוי יידילט זיך.1