When I'm invited for a Shabbos meal in Queens, I bring a bottle of wine for the hosts.

But what if I'm invited to spend Shabbos in Brooklyn, where I understand that yeshivish people don't hold by the eruv?

Would you have something delivered to the hosts before Shabbos or afterwards? That would be significantly more expensive than bringing a $10 bottle of wine with you. Would you try to drop by yourself before or after Shabbos with something? That is terribly inconvenient, and the host may not be home, etc. Or do you not bring anything and just thank them profusely and/or send a card afterwards?

Depends where in Brooklyn, but there is no technical difference between an otherwise kosher eiruv in queens or in brooklyn.

Flatbush, Avenue K area.

I thought that Rav Moshe Feinstein outlawed eiruvim in Brooklyn because of the population density, but did not make such a psak with regard to Qveens? I also think that many (if not all) yeshivish types in Qveens rely upon the eiruv (as I see them travel with baby carriages etc.), whereas they do not rely upon the eiruv in eretz kadosh Brooklyn.

Flatbush, Avenue K area.

I thought that Rav Moshe Feinstein outlawed eiruvim in Brooklyn because of the population density, but did not make such a psak with regard to Qveens? I also think that many (if not all) yeshivish types in Qveens rely upon the eiruv (as I see them travel with baby carriages etc.), whereas they do not rely upon the eiruv in eretz kadosh Brooklyn.

I assure you that any psak from 1960 based on population density of Queens has very little relevance today. Eiruv issues are always political. Since I have no information about Midwood / Flatbush eiruvs, I can't speak, but you can find out if your hosts sees it as an otherwise kosher eiruv that he's personally machmir upon, or if he's the one who comes over to people and tells them that he's warning them that they're chayav misa if they make another step.

One slight difference to look at- there isn't 1 huge Queens eruv- there are several that sometimes that are next one another and share a boundary point, but not always...the physical size and population in the 'Flatbush' eruv may be larger due to that.

We have discussed that halacha is variable, and one can either be brave and follow what he intellectually thinks is an acceptable derech, or be a mouse and follow the majority. Given my precarious state (unmarried older ba'al tshuva), I try to avoid any hint of scandal, and thus I choose to follow the majority.

In any case, I did not mean this to be a question on the efficacy of eiruvim, but rather, if there is no eiruv in a place, or if there is only an eiruv that is scorned by a majority of the local population (rather than by a small minority of the locals who wouldn't use any community eiruv), what would you do to show appreciation to a host?

When I'm invited for a Shabbos meal in Queens, I bring a bottle of wine for the hosts.

But what if I'm invited to spend Shabbos in Brooklyn, where I understand that yeshivish people don't hold by the eruv?

Would you have something delivered to the hosts before Shabbos or afterwards? That would be significantly more expensive than bringing a $10 bottle of wine with you. Would you try to drop by yourself before or after Shabbos with something? That is terribly inconvenient, and the host may not be home, etc. Or do you not bring anything and just thank them profusely and/or send a card afterwards?

Flatbush, Avenue K area.

I thought that Rav Moshe Feinstein outlawed eiruvim in Brooklyn because of the population density, but did not make such a psak with regard to Qveens? I also think that many (if not all) yeshivish types in Qveens rely upon the eiruv (as I see them travel with baby carriages etc.), whereas they do not rely upon the eiruv in eretz kadosh Brooklyn.

Would you have something delivered to the hosts before Shabbos or afterwards? That would be significantly more expensive than bringing a $10 bottle of wine with you. Would you try to drop by yourself before or after Shabbos with something? That is terribly inconvenient, and the host may not be home, etc. Or do you not bring anything and just thank them profusely and/or send a card afterwards?

Flatbush, Avenue K area.

There is a chassidish rav in flatbush, Rabbi Mandel, who wrote a sefer detailing precisely why the eiruv is kosher.

Many people do use it, and are not being mechallel shabbat by doing so.

When I'm invited for a Shabbos meal in Queens, I bring a bottle of wine for the hosts.

But what if I'm invited to spend Shabbos in Brooklyn, where I understand that yeshivish people don't hold by the eruv?

Would you have something delivered to the hosts before Shabbos or afterwards? That would be significantly more expensive than bringing a $10 bottle of wine with you. Would you try to drop by yourself before or after Shabbos with something? That is terribly inconvenient, and the host may not be home, etc. Or do you not bring anything and just thank them profusely and/or send a card afterwards?

There is a chassidish rav in flatbush, Rabbi Mandel, who wrote a sefer detailing precisely why the eiruv is kosher. Many people do use it, and are not being mechallel shabbat by doing so.

I myself do not use any eiruv that goes over a reshut harabim, even in cities where it has been established to all standards.

If you use the eiruv, and came over to my house, I would be able to use your wine, even if I myself do not use the eiruv. I have guests who bring things on shabbat regularly, and I make a point to use what they have brought since the eiruv is kosher.

don't forget to wave "hi"

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Eiruv map of Brooklyn. If the Eiruv doesn't extend to cover Ocean Parkway and maybe Coney Island Ave, perhaps there is less grounds for Reshus harabim Deoraysa. But on the other hand Grand Central, LIE and other Queens highways dwarf all Brooklyn roads. It's all very complicated, and I would very much appreciate if there was a Talmid Chochom who would invest time and effort to understand all applicable intricacies _without_ starting off with a ready answer ...

> While Rav Moshe did state (Igros Moshe, O.C. 4:86, and Addendum to
> O.C. 4:89) that one of his justifications for allowing an eruv in Kew
> Gardens Hills Queens was because they did not include a highway in
> the boundaries of the eruv, this does not clarify why he did not have
> a similar problem with the population of Queens as he had regarding

WADR, KGH is one of many small mixed residential and storefront
neighborhoods in Queens. It has nowhere near the population density of
either BP or Flatbush , Neither Jewel Avenue nor Main Street, on their
busiest days, have anywhere the pedestrian or auto traffic of Queens
Boulevard, Northern Boulevard or Ocean Parkway or any of the busy streets
in BP. No main highway such as the Van Wyck, LIE or Grand Central go
thru the neighborhood. You have to exit these highways and proceed for
a distance before you even get to KGH. In addition, the shealah re the
eruv was posed by R P Steinberg, a long time talmid of RMF. These facts
are all assumed by RMF in his discussion which approved of an eruv in KGH.

How would you know ?

I'm not aware of anyone allowing eiruv to go over reshus harabim.

Its a sefardic thing. We do not use any eiruv that goes over a reshut harabim. Only eiruvim that connect private properties.

wouldn't it be the same as if there is no eruv and a non-frum guest brings chocolates for the dessert - can'nt use on shabbos, correct?

It is not a "sephardic" thing. Nobody permits an eruv over a reshus harabim because that is forbidden min hatorah. An eruv by definition can only go over a karmelis. The issue is only what is considered a karmelis.

You have to bring it before shabbat, in my opinion. if the host isn't home, just leave it at the front door. odds are they'll be home soon.
but if you don't bring anything, odds are the hosts will be understanding. I'm sure they want you, not the wine.

if the host isn't home, just leave it at the front door.

This is exactly what I would have written had I gotten here first.

melech: "if the host isn't home, just leave it at the front door"



Maybe in Toronto or Arizona, but we're talking about New York City, where 85% of the population are thieves.

So hide it somewhere completely out of sight and then call your host and tell him where you hid it.

But the thieves could be watching when you hide something. Besides, when where does one hide a bottle of wine? Under the welcome mat?

wouldn't it be the same as if there is no eruv and a non-frum guest brings chocolates for the dessert - can'nt use on shabbos, correct?

When the husband and wife are trudging through the snow on shabbos coming home from shul, and he's too holy to carry, so she's pushing the stroller and carrying another kid and balancing his tallis bag on top of her head, can he tell her that he can't help watch the kids in the afternoon since he can't get hana'ah from what she's carrying?