the OPS, customer service? I'd like to register a complaint.

Thank you,
Xi

sure, call me.

The new head of the complaint department is Helen Waite. If you have a complaint, go to Helen Waite.

I man the complaint department from 4-8 today; feel free to call...

very bad service. what is she supposed to do for the next 2 hours? she has to file it NOW!

Do you mind sharing with the rest of the class what your specific complaint is [unless of course it's private]?

Since two fellow members have kindly offered their services, I shall share my complaint.
What's up with no family seating at concerts? I understand offering mostly separate seating, but what's up with this new mishegas? I mean, I understand, too, why I shouldn't be out walking with my fifteen year old brother on the street because people might come to terrible thoughts about us, but say we take the train. Then we enter the concert hall and sit in a section called FAMILY seating. Couldn't everyone guess that we're family, and not incestuous? And if not, couldn't they get their minds out of the gutter? Because, after all, there's a bucherl involved. And since only girls have the responsibility of keeping others' minds clean, this shouldn't affect my poor brother who had his friend back out on him. Especially since it's a luxury and Judaism is all about spending money on luxuries, our crystal, non-silver candelabra notwithstanding. And especially since we're taught in Bais Yaakov that Judaism is not about depriving oneself. And that that is a very important concept. And also because chesed begins at home and therefore one's sister should be the one accompanying her brother to a concert, and not a friend. Although women shouldn't be on the streets or trains at all, as that might lead to talking to an opposite-sex stranger while waiting patiently to transfer from the D. So maybe the OPS is right. I don't need customer service after all.

But thanks for the offer.

This might be their reasoning: once you're already at a nonkosher place like a concert, why should they provide family seating?

Also, perhaps they don't want to have to deal with who is considered a "significant other".

But if two people go to a concert and thus are already a sheigatz and a shiksa, who cares if they're together? Unless they're saying that shkutzim obviously can't have proper families, and thus these seating arrangements shouldn't be provided.

Oops. I forgot. That's all their business.
Although isn't that a good way to spy and thus determine people's shidduch prospects?

I suggest that the next time you have a taaveh to lodge frivolous complaints against the OPS koidesh, you instead recite a kapital tehillim and learn half a chapter from R Falk's book (in private, of course, so observers wouldnt ch"v come to think youre learning from real seforim).

(Did you forget that 'OPS' if anything BANNED these concerts? This is not a question on any 'OPS', but the organizers, who want to show how kosher they are.)


Perhaps people who would go to a nonkosher place like a concert, cannot be trusted to act like family.

Probably they don't want to see people doing bad things.

Forgive me, but I thought the latest heilikeit was perek shira.
Also, thank you for reminding me to get rid of my Internet-capable cell phone.

The organizers are influenced by the OPS, which, don't forget, is mostly just society.

OK. Remind me not to have sex with my brother at the concert.

No wonder you thought it was okay to suggest family concert seating....

The appropriate chapter would be 22:

2. ... Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my loud complaint?...
21... Save my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog...

How does "family seating" help OTHER families.
I am pretty convinced that you won't have sex with your brother, at least in public, but what about the guy(s) sitting next to you? What if your brother takes a fancy to the chick sitting in the row in front of him?

If you could somehow isolate every individual family in an opaque bubble and have it so they can see and interact with no one but the performers on stage I would see your point, but otherwise "family seating" is a clever euphemism for mixed seating/co-ed momish (which many people are perfectly comfortable with, but not "Dossim").....

My chassidish friend and I joke to this day that in Gush Katif they had 3 beaches. Men, Women and "Mishchpacti" וד''ל

Oh and I almost forgot:

I understand that. But separate seating should be a SERVICE given to, say, the 2/3 of the audience that is coming with same-sex friends or family, and the family seating should be a service for those coming with opposite-sex family (or friends). If my brother takes a fancy to the girl sitting in the row in front of him, that's his problem. That possibility shouldn't make him not be able to sit with his sister, either.

Now if he decides to make out with the girl sitting a row ahead of him, they have reason to send him out. But more likely he's in it for the concert, not the girls.

In other words, you think concerts should be by default co-ed and thn throw a bone to those interested in separate seating.
In other words as I said above, "family seating" is a red herring and is not even limited to "families"...

That's nice, but the people organizing, promoting, and often performing at these concerts do not share your opinion on this matter.. The OPS is taking strides to ban concerts with separate seating and even separate ENTRANCES, and you want to institute "family seating"??? Can I have fries with that????

Welcome to my sig.

hello!!! the concerts are forbidden (btw, i just saw the unity yerushalayim concert advertised, with pruzhansky, iirc...), and you are requesting family seating?

I'm not requesting this super-weird thing. When I was a kid (and I'm still mostly a kid, so that's not even saying much), family seating was a pretty normal thing. I guess when people say their grandparents did mixed dancing it doesn't affect me much, because I didn't see the change in front of my eyes, and because it involves negiah. Now, sitting with your family makes you a sheigetz. Darn, if I'm a shikse already, why not do it all the way? I mean, I'm not even only a shikse -- I'm a prostitute for wearing semi-fitted clothes. So I should join Int's kosher ring. 70K is a nice starting salary for me.
I'm not saying anything new. This has been rehashed on H countless times. But I don't understand it. I really don't. When did the world go entirely beserk? Has inertia finally overcome gravity and is the Earth suddenly flying through space, and there's nothing but a cold, hard rock left, with memories of a great civilization that once was? Or was there never any great civilization at all, and we're all deluding ourselves?
And I'm not even saying that mixed seating should be the default. People should have a choice. Judaism has something to say about family life, doesn't it? Yes, family seating is a service made for families. But what are they going to do, check everyone's birth certificates?


w00t!

No need to do anything rash. You can always just embrace the fact that you are MO..... Your blood pressure will drop significantly, and it will spare you wrinkles down the line....


The problem is that "choice" doesn't only effect you. It is a halachic question, or at the very least a hashkafic one. Are mixed/co ed events acceptable in the frum world, or for the sake of this discussion the yeshivish/chassidish worlds?? If the answer is yes, there is no need for separate seating at all, and providing it is an "indulgence" to the chumra of the week club. But if the answer is NO, and mixed events are NOT acceptible, calling it "family seating" doesn't help or change anything. The fact that a few out of the hundreds or thousands of people sitting next to you are family is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion as everyone else is NOT...

Forget concerts for a second, what about "family seating" at weddings and/or shiurim?

Do kids events need separate seating? If so, from what age? At what age can a mother* drop off her sons in the men's section and enjoy herself in the women's section sans annoying children?

Whatever you call me now is irrelevant. As you know, I grew up chassidish, in Lakewood and in Borough Park, and there WAS mixed seating options. This isn't about MO.*

If a mixed concert isn't okay, why is a mixed pizza shop? The point in having separate seating is that a group of girlfriends should be able to have their boisterous fun while not next to a group of teenaged boys. The point in family seating is that divorced Daddy should be able to take twelve-year old twins Toby and Tuli to the concert with him, without them having to split up. Just as in pizza shop, if there's little room, groups of boys and girls, strangers, will stick to their own gendered tables, but Family Fried can sit mixed at one table. Giving separate seating options is not necessarily an indulgence if mixed seating is okay, because there's a difference if there's a group of teenaged girls and a group of teenaged boys, rachmono litzlon, sitting near each other, and groups of families. As much as you may say there isn't, there is.


*although it would help my blood pressure if Moshi's characterization would not be brought as absolute proof for everything.

I know you jest, but clearly some people do need a reminder.

Let's take that as proof that we must further isolate ourselves.


If they don't need it yet, they will in a few years. So the ages will be irrelevant then.

That world is LONG gone...

Exactly

I don't see why people were so opposed to blowing it up.
ETA: Oops, I misread that as the. But I'm only seventeen, and have few memories from before the age of ten. So it can't be that long.


The sad thing is that it's almost serious. Eventually the biggest factor keeping people to Judaism will be the fact that they were so isolated that they just can't function in the outside world.

Wow.

I personally think this is already true for some today.

I've been to mixed seating concerts, they still exist. But don't expect Lipa to play at one......



I think that historically has always been true. For the most part, when Jews could "get out" they did and didn't look back.......

I'm sure it is.


This isn't a Lipa concert...

Then the future is bleak for the Jewish people. We need Moshiach soon (not that anyone cares).

all i was saying was that the concerts are assur now, so the seating issue is moot

We're getting more [language alert]* by the second.


*censored

hey, not nice to make fun of immigrants

(thanks, rachel8)

In honor of Purim?

What does OPS mean?

Edit: just found out it means Orthodox Power Structure. Interesting.

So was I when I first joined this site. She reminds me of myself at her age.

No. Very different.

I haven't read all the posts so pardon me if this was discussed. What really goes on at these concerts? Is there pritsus in the audiance? Outside?
I only went to one concert and it must have been over ten years ago. It was a Sharoshim sponsored concert in Carnegie Hall. We took my grandpa there for his birthday although we liked it better than he did. (His first Yahrtzeit just passed by the way.) There was seperate and mixed seating. We sat seperate.
What bothered my parents was that when a kid in a choir would sing solo his familly would schreik out loud his name like they were drunk at a hockey game. (I assume that goes on at hockey games.) My parents are no extremists. My mom didn't allways cover her hair at that point. And she just started davening daily within the last few years. Both my parents have Ivy League educations etc. Theyr not a sheltered guy like me. But they felt there was a lack of refinement that existed at, say the concerts my mom went to in the early 60s. Any it is my parents refinement that led them to where they are today. Even when my mom wore sleeveless she said she tried to be refine. And when my grandma passed away she started wearing only with sleeves. Their refinement led them down the road to shmiras Hatorah. Any comments?

I think you make good points, motcha. I for one am turned off by many music concerts; I don't like to see little kids strutting around on stage making the moves they're taught to make, and the reaction of the audience isn't very aidel either, with the yelling and whooping etc. However, this particular issue isn't addressed by having separate seating. Is banning concerts the only approach though? Is it possible to have a Jewish music concert that will be a kiddush hashem, or is the very format an imitation of darchei hagoyim and can never lead to kedusha?

Although I'm not against mixed seating and hate having morality shoved down my throat as much as anyone else, I do see the problem with mixed seating at concerts.

As K-Rebbe said, family seating is not just for your family. In Chazal there is a concept of "leko darko achrino" which means "there is no other way." That's why walking on the street is fine even though you may see a female and come to think devious thoughts. A concert on the other hand is not a life necessity, therefore where there may be histaklus as by family seating, it is Toradig to refrain.

Farshtanen?