Hashkafah.com > Brachot 5b

critic

Mar 5 2005, 10:08 PM

When the gemara recounts how R' Yochanan had the Issurin shel Ahava, it tells over how he used to be menachem avel by carrying the bone (tooth) of his tenth child that had passed away.

The gemara goes on to tell over a few stories where he met other people with Issurin shel Ahava, and after the person said "I don't need the Issurin or its rewards" he'd take their hand and 'relieve them' of their issurin, i.e. they disappeared.

The gemara asks the obvious question: If R' Yochanan was able to relieve others of their Issuring, how come he didn't just do it for himself? The gemara answers that a prisoner can't take himself out of prison, meaning that he can't do it for himself.

My question is, if he can't do it for himself, why can't he do what he did for others, get someone else who is having these Issurin shel Ahava and have THEM get rid of it for R' Yochanan?

Also, Hashem only gives someone trials that they can handle. If they can't handle it, they won't get it. The gemara seems to say on the previous amud that one will only get Issuring if they can handle them. If this is the case, why did R' Chiya bar Abba and R' Chanina get Issurin if they in fact couldn't handle them?

grend123

Mar 5 2005, 11:34 PM

QUOTE(critic @ Mar 5 2005, 10:08 PM)

When the gemara recounts how R' Yochanan had the Issurin shel Ahava, it tells over how he used to be menachem avel by carrying the bone (tooth) of his tenth child that had passed away.

The gemara goes on to tell over a few stories where he met other people with Issurin shel Ahava, and after the person said "I don't need the Issurin or its rewards" he'd take their hand and 'relieve them' of their issurin, i.e. they disappeared.

The gemara asks the obvious question: If R' Yochanan was able to relieve others of their Issuring, how come he didn't just do it for himself? The gemara answers that a prisoner can't take himself out of prison, meaning that he can't do it for himself.

My question is, if he can't do it for himself, why can't he do what he did for others, get someone else who is having these Issurin shel Ahava and have THEM get rid of it for R' Yochanan?

Also, Hashem only gives someone trials that they can handle. If they can't handle it, they won't get it. The gemara seems to say on the previous amud that one will only get Issuring if they can handle them. If this is the case, why did R' Chiya bar Abba and R' Chanina get Issurin if they in fact couldn't handle them?
[right][snapback]173974[/snapback][/right]

Good question. This is a difficult sugya, and the Rishonim are key to understanding it. Even the Artscroll in the footnotes to this sugya doesn't try to explain it - in fact, it suggests learning Iyov with the Rishonim! The entire sugya is near impossible to understand at the plain p'shat level.

That being said, there are some simple answers to your questions. First, who says someone else had the power to remove them for him? It's a chiddush that he could do it, and it doesn't appear that the other Amoraim could.

Second, it isn't apparent that they couldn't stand the yissurim - just that given the choice they preferred not to. Remember that one is not supposed to place oneself in a nissayon, and given a way out of the yissurin it's not clear that the proper thing would be to ignore that way out. If a doctor would give them a medicine to take away the yissurin they would take it - and Rav Yochanan was doing the same thing.

But again, this is way simplified, and something that needs in depth learning.

On a side note, I see from the past few threads that you've started Daf Yomi. Good luck!

critic

Mar 6 2005, 08:28 PM

Thanks for your answer. And yes, I did just start Daf Yomi, and B"H I'm enjoying it immensly! (even if I have to get up at 5:30)