Hashkafah.com > 16b, 17a

critic

Mar 17 2005, 09:42 AM

The gemara seems to say that whatever happens in shamayim is parallel to what happens here on earth. I think what it is saying is that things on earth happen as a result of what happens in shamayim among the angels.

What does this mean in terms of bechira? If things happen here because of what happened there, I can't choose to do what I want, because it depends on what happens in shamayim?

shim

Mar 17 2005, 07:39 PM

I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Things have their parallel in shamayim, like Yerushalayim/ Tziyon. I don't think that is supposed to mean that heavenly happenings cause their earthly counterparts to happen.

krumlikeapretzel

Mar 17 2005, 07:50 PM

QUOTE(critic @ Mar 17 2005, 09:42 AM)

The gemara seems to say that whatever happens in shamayim is parallel to what happens here on earth. I think what it is saying is that things on earth happen as a result of what happens in shamayim among the angels.

What does this mean in terms of bechira? If things happen here because of what happened there, I can't choose to do what I want, because it depends on what happens in shamayim?
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It's saying specifically that a machlokes befamalia shel malah causes a war amongst the umos haolam. "Lev melachim beyad Hashem." No, they don't have bechirah, at least in certain things. But that is only the melachim of umos haolam.