The gemara lists one of the reasons for having 18 brachot is because there are 18 vertebrae in the spine.
But that's not true. There are 27 (28 if you count the coccyx).
C1-C7 = 7
T1-T12 = 12
L1-L4 = 4
S1-S4 = 4
Total = 27
I can understand to take out the lumboric and sacral vetebrae, as that is the lower back, and might not count, but that still leaves us with 19.
Full Version: 18 Brachot Of Shmone Esre
QUOTE(critic @ Apr 1 2005, 11:53 AM)
The gemara lists one of the reasons for having 18 brachot is because there are 18 vertebrae in the spine.
But that's not true. There are 27 (28 if you count the coccyx).
C1-C7 = 7
T1-T12 = 12
L1-L4 = 4
S1-S4 = 4
Total = 27
I can understand to take out the lumboric and sacral vetebrae, as that is the lower back, and might not count, but that still leaves us with 19.
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But that's not true. There are 27 (28 if you count the coccyx).
C1-C7 = 7
T1-T12 = 12
L1-L4 = 4
S1-S4 = 4
Total = 27
I can understand to take out the lumboric and sacral vetebrae, as that is the lower back, and might not count, but that still leaves us with 19.
[right][snapback]192694[/snapback][/right]
1. I assume you looked at the Artscroll where they count 17 vertebrae of the back below the neck, 12 dorsal and 5 lumbar. They reference Dr. Preuss but I don't have that book.
2. And the fallopian tubes exit into the uterus. And the heart has 4 chambers. And semen and urine exit through a single channel.
3. Being off by one isn't such a big deal in matters of remez.
4. Why are you assuming that the number of vertebrae is wrong and not the number of berachot? If you count "vi-liyrushalyim" and "et tzemach david" as one berachah, then you have 17 (besides birchat ha-minim).
I didn't see anything about that in the Artscroll gemara. I actually don't have one, but when I thought of this question, I borrowed one, and all it said was that it referred to the 18 small vertebrae of the back.
Also, I believe there are only 4 lumbar vertabrae, not five
Edit, there are five.
.
But again, that's only 17. If its going to be a remez, it should at least be the right number.
Also, I believe there are only 4 lumbar vertabrae, not five
Edit, there are five.
.But again, that's only 17. If its going to be a remez, it should at least be the right number.
QUOTE(critic @ Apr 1 2005, 03:24 PM)
I didn't see anything about that in the Artscroll gemara. I actually don't have one, but when I thought of this question, I borrowed one, and all it said was that it referred to the 18 small vertebrae of the back.
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Thank you Tova:
QUOTE(Tova)
i have the biblical and talmudic medicine by preuss-- presumably what you're looking for-- need info?
QUOTE(Melech)
Artscroll 28b
"These 18 blessings, to what do they correspond?...Corresponding to the eighteen vertebrae in the spine."
footnote 34
"In stating the total number of vertebrae in the spine, the Rabbis apparently referred only to those below the neck. This accounts for 17 vertebrae The identity of the eighteenth vertebra mentioned here in unclear (see Biblical and Talmudic Medicine by Dr. Julius Preuss, p. 65)."
"These 18 blessings, to what do they correspond?...Corresponding to the eighteen vertebrae in the spine."
footnote 34
"In stating the total number of vertebrae in the spine, the Rabbis apparently referred only to those below the neck. This accounts for 17 vertebrae The identity of the eighteenth vertebra mentioned here in unclear (see Biblical and Talmudic Medicine by Dr. Julius Preuss, p. 65)."
QUOTE(Tova)
If one assumes that the Mishnah refers to the seven cervical vertrebrae and the lingual bone when it speaks of "the eight bones of the neck", the statement about the "eighteeen vertebrae" (chulyoth) is easily explained; twelve thoracic and six lumbar vertebrae. Even if the normal number of lumbar vertebrae is only five, in exceptionally tall individuals one can also observe six (368).
Hippocrates correctly lists the number of cervical vertebrae (369). Concerning the total number of vertebrae, he has the astonishing assertion: "some have more and some have less; those who have more, pleonas (370), have twenty-two" (371). Galen has the correct numbers (7+12+5) (372) and so do the Arabs (373). The number eighteen is later found in the Middle Ages among the Salernitans, based upon an unknown source, but perhaps from the Jews whose number and prestige in Salerno was not inconsiderable. As shown above, this assertion need not be "one of the many and monstrous anatomical errors of that era" (374).
At the end of the eighteen vertebrae, there is a bone (375) which resembles an almond (376) and which the legend of the Talmud call luz. King Hadrian once asked Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah: from which part of the body will man in the world to come sprout forth? He answered the luz of the spinal column. As proof of the indestructibility of this bone, he placed one in water but it was not dissolved; he let it pass through millstones but it was not ground; he put it on an anvil and beat it with a hammer; the anvil was flattened out and the hammer was split, but the luz remained undamaged (377). Only the deluge, by which God meant to annihilate mankind (378), also destroyed the luz of the vertebral column (379).
Hippocrates correctly lists the number of cervical vertebrae (369). Concerning the total number of vertebrae, he has the astonishing assertion: "some have more and some have less; those who have more, pleonas (370), have twenty-two" (371). Galen has the correct numbers (7+12+5) (372) and so do the Arabs (373). The number eighteen is later found in the Middle Ages among the Salernitans, based upon an unknown source, but perhaps from the Jews whose number and prestige in Salerno was not inconsiderable. As shown above, this assertion need not be "one of the many and monstrous anatomical errors of that era" (374).
At the end of the eighteen vertebrae, there is a bone (375) which resembles an almond (376) and which the legend of the Talmud call luz. King Hadrian once asked Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah: from which part of the body will man in the world to come sprout forth? He answered the luz of the spinal column. As proof of the indestructibility of this bone, he placed one in water but it was not dissolved; he let it pass through millstones but it was not ground; he put it on an anvil and beat it with a hammer; the anvil was flattened out and the hammer was split, but the luz remained undamaged (377). Only the deluge, by which God meant to annihilate mankind (378), also destroyed the luz of the vertebral column (379).
QUOTE(Critic)
But again, that's only 17. If its going to be a remez, it should at least be the right number.
Not really.
Secondly, why are vertebrae classified as thoracic or lumbar or cervical or whatever? It has to do with the nerves coming off the spinal column. As your picture demonstrates, the nerves exit the spinal column from the spinal cord from the cervical vertebrae and provide innervation to cervical structures. Similarly, the nerves from the thoracic vertebrae innervate the thorax. So the demarcation between cervical and thoracic vertebrae are nothing to do with any inherent difference between C7 and T1. Rather, it's a description of what the nerves do. Who's to say that Chazal decided C7 is a neck vertebra rather than a back vertebra? In other words, who says Chazal's classification reflects neurology, as does modern anatomy, rather than let's say, some other criterion and called C7 part of the sets that includes the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae?
Thirdly, I'm not convinced the number of vertebrae needs correcting and I'm offering the suggestion that it's the number of berachot that needs correcting. But I'm on tenuous ground on this one so I'll leave it at that. My real answer is that C7 to Chazal is included in the set of dorsal vertebrae.
It makes sense, and thank you Tova!
re: C7, C7 happens to be the most prominent of the vertebrae, as when the neck is in flexion, it sticks out the most (Try it, bend your neck forward, and feel for the bump at the back of the neck...that is C7). So I can definitely see it being counted with the thoracic vertebrae. (I guess the sacral vertebrae are too far down to be included in the count)
re: C7, C7 happens to be the most prominent of the vertebrae, as when the neck is in flexion, it sticks out the most (Try it, bend your neck forward, and feel for the bump at the back of the neck...that is C7). So I can definitely see it being counted with the thoracic vertebrae. (I guess the sacral vertebrae are too far down to be included in the count)
QUOTE(critic @ Apr 2 2005, 10:58 PM)
It makes sense, and thank you Tova!
re: C7, C7 happens to be the most prominent of the vertebrae, as when the neck is in flexion, it sticks out the most (Try it, bend your neck forward, and feel for the bump at the back of the neck...that is C7). So I can definitely see it being counted with the thoracic vertebrae. (I guess the sacral vertebrae are too far down to be included in the count)
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re: C7, C7 happens to be the most prominent of the vertebrae, as when the neck is in flexion, it sticks out the most (Try it, bend your neck forward, and feel for the bump at the back of the neck...that is C7). So I can definitely see it being counted with the thoracic vertebrae. (I guess the sacral vertebrae are too far down to be included in the count)
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alternatively, 12 thoracic + 5 lumbar + all the sacral vertebrae, although developmentally are separate, are fused and in effect are one bone = 18
QUOTE(melech @ Apr 1 2005, 02:55 PM)
And semen and urine exit through a single channel.
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Nishtanu Hativ'im. (Chazon Ish)
QUOTE(farshideneh greenstein @ Apr 3 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(melech @ Apr 1 2005, 02:55 PM)
And semen and urine exit through a single channel.
[right][snapback]192754[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]192754[/snapback][/right]
Nishtanu Hativ'im. (Chazon Ish)
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I'm spinning this.
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